At 17:35 14/02/2004, you wrote:
I agree, I think you might need a "cross over" component that explains how to migrate your existing windows into Linux.
And compatibility - "I can't use Linux as I need to be able to read and write Microsoft Office documents". "OF course I won't be able to play WAV or mp3 files on linux will I?". "I need to be able to open Windoes images (by this they usually mean GIF or JPEG) so linux is no use to me". "Linux is Unix isn't it? I couldn't function without my mouse and a window". (Hence my worries about the first few seminars.)
While we may need to show people answers to these questions to make Linux more attractive, we are not trying to convert these people. They are going to use Linux, they have to and have no choice if they are to complete their courses. What we are aiming for primarily with these training is to help the students use Linux more effectivly for their course requirements (hence the focus on bash, editors etc). Hopefully if we do a good job of that we will get students interested in Linux in general. We will make sure that they realise that WLUG is there for them when/if they want to make the transition to Linux on machines at home. Teaching them some things like Linux gaming, wine and even gimp and mp3 players isn't going to be achieving our goal of helping them with their course related requirements.
I hate to flog the dead horse, but if you make it more attractive for them to use they will be better off then just a "you need to do it" situation. If they get a feeling for what they would normally do in a familiar environment it will be a win win at the end of the day. After all, no one likes too leave their comfort zone, and if they must it would be better for them to do so in a manor that would be easy for them to understand, and if that means exposing them too the side of linux that is not part of the course needs, will it really hurt? One problem I encounter with linux is the "server" impression of linux. Not many people really seem to be aware that linux can be a desktop platform, and as a result fun to use. If you can impose this on the students it would be a good start, in my opinion. Also if the students are using it at home then it will be better for them in a work situation as well.
On the other hand, we have talked about the March WLUG presentation being an intoductory presentation, perhaps going through installing a distro, setting it up and showing off solutions to the common issues you have discussed. Perhaps if we have time and enough interest / help we may follow this up with an installfest.
I think an installfest is long over due... be sure to sing out for help....
Jamie
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I hate to flog the dead horse, but if you make it more attractive for them to use they will be better off then just a "you need to do it" situation.
We just don't have time. Theres so much we want to teach them to let them use the labs effectively for coding (things like make, cvs, ssh, bash scripting, perl/python/ruby scripting, how X11 works....) that we can't fit more stuff into our schedule. In particular, by the time we're giving the tutorials, they are expected to be using the labs to do their first assignments. We've made a conscious decision to teach them the bare minimum to get any use out of the labs so we can cover a very broad set of topics. They're 2nd year Computer Science Students, so they are expected to be able to "deal" with situations such as learning another programming language quickly and without direction. They're expected to be able to learn to use Linux by themselves and without help. We're just trying to make their lives more productive by showing them the tricks you need to know to be productive *as a programmer* in the university computer labs. This specifically means that we're not covering: * System administration -- TSG manage all the computers, users don't have root. * "User applications" -- If you need a replacement for word/power point/excel, you're expected to be able to figure out what that "Open Office" icon on your desktop means without our help. * Advanced tools -- This is meant to get users up to speed with doing programming under Linux. Things like "make", "cvs", "how X11 works" etc are all very important topics to using Linux effectively, but they are too advanced to fit into the time allocated. And, (IMHO) these are more important to our end users then an introduction to how to use OpenOffice. * Programming *for* Linux -- we don't cover things like the unix syscalls, and only very briefly cover the unix process model (just enough so that the users know how to kill errant processes without rebooting the machine). We for instance don't cover what fork(2) or exec(2) is, or what the various unix signals mean or how to catch them.
After all, no one likes too leave their comfort zone, and if they must it would be better for them to do so in a manor that would be easy for them to understand, and if that means exposing them too the side of Linux that is not part of the course needs, will it really hurt?
I'd love to do this, but we just don't have the time.
One problem I encounter with linux is the "server" impression of linux. Not many people really seem to be aware that linux can be a desktop platform, and as a result fun to use. If you can impose this on the students it would be a good start, in my opinion.
Well, students have to use this as their "Desktop" at uni, coz well, thats all they have access to :) The labs this year (I believe) are running a very recent version of Gentoo which means they should get a reasonably up to date KDE or GNOME desktop (depending on what they want) with reasonably up to date applications. They should be in an environment where they can learn to use Linux as a desktop operating system without much work.
Also if the students are using it at home then it will be better for them in a work situation as well.
Now, that's something I'd like to see. We've "reserved" the March Meeting topic slot for an Installfest/Introduction to Linux, hopefully capturing the students and getting them to join the LUG. We're hoping to give out Knoppix CD's to interested users so they can try Linux at home before they come to the LUG meeting. Perhaps "Customised" so that they bring the people interested in Linux to the LUG.
I think an installfest is long over due... be sure to sing out for help....
The committee has specifically been holding off having an installfest until all the uni students are back at uni so we have a good "user base" to advertise to. Especially since the Computer Science University Students have to run Linux at uni, they're practically a captive audience.
I hate to flog the dead horse, but if you make it more attractive for them to use they will be better off then just a "you need to do it" situation.
If they get a feeling for what they would normally do in a familiar environment it will be a win win at the end of the day.
After all, no one likes too leave their comfort zone, and if they must it would be better for them to do so in a manor that would be easy for them to understand, and if that means exposing them too the side of linux that is not part of the course needs, will it really hurt?
One problem I encounter with linux is the "server" impression of linux. Not many people really seem to be aware that linux can be a desktop platform, and as a result fun to use. If you can impose this on the students it would be a good start, in my opinion.
Perry made some good points, but as well as that: The focus of these tutorials have already been impressed upon them that Linux can be used as a desktop. They have been told they have linux desktops to work with. We don't need to convince them that Linux isn't just a server OS. They quite simply don't have the choice, so there isn't as much of a need to make it attractive for them Also, the things we are trying to teach them in this set of tutorials are things that will help to migrate them from their 'comfort' zone. Tricks like up arrow in bash, ctrl-r / ctrl-o, tab name completion, how the directory structure works, will all make them far more productive students of computer science than otherwise. Students I've talked to who have been dissastisfied with the labs are ones who tried to do every file operation using some badly broken GUI file manager, when they could have used the command line to do it in less time than it took the file manager to load (this was a few years ago, and the only gui file managers available were badly broken!). I've seen students laboriously retype gcc or javac command lines, often having to re-enter them when they inevitably made tyops, because they didn't know about a) tab completion to get filenames right, b) up arrow in bash to access the command history, and c) makefiles. Any of which would have made their life a LOT easier. All the comments we've received are good ones, and apply very well to a set of "Intro to linux" lectures/tutorials/whatever in the general context, however we can make a few assumptions about our target audience for these particular ones :) Daniel
less time than it took the file manager to load (this was a few years ago, and the only gui file managers available were badly broken!). I've seen students laboriously retype gcc or javac command lines, often having to re-enter them when they inevitably made tyops, because they
Does the CS department off much in the way of guidance in the OpenSource Java area? Ie, things like how to use Ant, JUnit, Jakarta-* projects, Netbeans/Eclipse etc. I think a lot of these things would be very helpful to students doing courses with Java as the programming language. Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver.jones(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com
Does the CS department off much in the way of guidance in the OpenSource Java area? Ie, things like how to use Ant, JUnit, Jakarta-* projects, Netbeans/Eclipse etc. I think a lot of these things would be very helpful to students doing courses with Java as the programming language.
I think some of those tools are covered briefly, however only in later years. It would probably be very helpful to teach students, however I don't think anyone currently involved in these tutorials knows very much about Ant etc! Maybe next time... :)
On Sun, Feb 15, 2004 at 09:48:06AM +1300, Daniel Lawson wrote:
They quite simply don't have the choice, so there isn't as much of a need to make it attractive for them
i disagree. if they get a bad first impression they will hate linux and be even harder to convince. even if they are forced to use it, it must be attractive, if they are to get a good impression and keep wanting to use linux more...
Students I've talked to who have been dissastisfied with the labs are ones who tried to do every file operation using some badly broken GUI file manager, when they could have used the command line to do it in less time than it took the file manager to load
to some people the commandline will never be attractive, and if there are good gui tools, don't withhold them just because you think the commandline is better anyways. (though i accept that there probably is simply no time for that in your particular situation) greetings, martin. -- looking for a job doing pike programming, sTeam/caudium/pike/roxen training, sTeam/caudium/roxen and/or unix system administration anywhere in the world. -- pike programmer travelling and working in europe (latvia) open-steam.org unix system- bahai.or.at iaeste.(tuwien.ac|or).at administrator (stuts|black.linux-m68k).org is.schon.org Martin Bähr http://www.iaeste.or.at/~mbaehr/
On Sat, Feb 14, 2004 at 11:01:20PM +1300, DrWho? wrote:
One problem I encounter with linux is the "server" impression of linux. Not many people really seem to be aware that linux can be a desktop platform, and as a result fun to use.
that's a very good observation. among the people i work with, there are a lot that swear by linux (or unix in general) for their servers, and are even quite well versed in using the commandline and unix tools. but they will happily use windows on the desktop greetings, martin. -- looking for a job doing pike programming, sTeam/caudium/pike/roxen training, sTeam/caudium/roxen and/or unix system administration anywhere in the world. -- pike programmer travelling and working in europe (latvia) open-steam.org unix system- bahai.or.at iaeste.(tuwien.ac|or).at administrator (stuts|black.linux-m68k).org is.schon.org Martin Bähr http://www.iaeste.or.at/~mbaehr/
participants (5)
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Daniel Lawson -
DrWho? -
Martin Bähr -
Oliver Jones -
Perry Lorier