Re: [wlug] Install fest
At 15:49 15/04/2004, you wrote:
I would think, providing something like Partition Magic is available ( which I have and no doubt others ) to do the job it could be offered as an option for those who are not competent with doing it themselves or installing new hardware.
Oh? Does the license allow that? Even so, it's still far more risk/hassle than we need I believe.
It can run from a boot disk, no install on target PC needed.
I have resized MANY NTFS and FAT partitions with PQMAGIC and never had a problem, not to say there have not or will not be any problems, but there is also the option of ghosting their HDD before the resize.
To what? Are you providing the disk space? Remember this is an afternoon workshop.
Good question, that is one minor problem with ghost.... perhaps a spare 40G HDD?? Or setup a ghost server on a PC with some disk space and ghost over a network?
-- Greig McGill
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To what? Are you providing the disk space? Remember this is an afternoon workshop.
Good question, that is one minor problem with ghost.... perhaps a spare 40G HDD?? Or setup a ghost server on a PC with some disk space and ghost over a network?
For reasons I've harped on about elsewhere, we're not going to use ghost. We could use partimage, as that works pretty well. I have enough diskspace in the server onsite to handle this. I'm not sure (with my site admin hat on - the installfest is slated for crawshaw school atm, and I run the network there) that I want to offer that facility however. I think the main point that is missing is that WLUG does not want to be responsible in any way for the integrity of data or installed applications. Better options, in my opinion, are: * Have a portable CD writer we can use to burn backups of their important data to CD, if they have no provision to do so themselves. We could use the network as a temporary storage, but it means they can't take their data with them when they leave if things aren't finished yet, and it means they have to have a network card. * Talk to recycled tech or someone similar and see if they have a number of 10 GB or so harddisks they'd be willing to let us sell on behalf, and if people turn up without harddisks we can sell them one. Assuming the price is low enough * Same thing as above, but with harddisks donated to the LUG by all the nice friendly IT firms in Hamilton and surrounds who have smallish, older harddisks falling out their ears. We could also look at having network cards available on the day for people without them. While I agree that we want to make this as easy for them as possible, when all is said and done it is up to *them* to make sure their data is intact. We can do all we can to make sure things go easily for them, but if we fuck it up after assuring them that we'll keep it intact, then we'll look bad. If someone has a harddisk full of critical documents and they aren't backed up, it's their fault. I'm very willing to educate people on this, but I'm not willing to let WLUG field any crap because we misplaced 7 years worth of financial document history or something.
I think the main point that is missing is that WLUG does not want to be responsible in any way for the integrity of data or installed applications. Better options, in my opinion, are: Your options are all correct, given the fact that you have a backup, you
should be able to show people an open source app that that resizing. To use a closed sourced product on an Linux install fest seems IMHO countereffective to the whole idea of Open Source. How many CD's of an OS do you need for the Installfest? I am happy to chip in with a few hundred free yoper cd's if you want. Thinking about it, I am going to integrate an ncurses parted frontend into the installer .... Andreas
should be able to show people an open source app that that resizing. To use a closed sourced product on an Linux install fest seems IMHO countereffective to the whole idea of Open Source.
Bingo
How many CD's of an OS do you need for the Installfest? I am happy to chip in with a few hundred free yoper cd's if you want.
Wow. Thanks for the offer. We've already kind of decided to follow through with Fedora Core 1, as it was the distribution we used when we ran our intro to a linux install meeting last weekend. We'll talk about it :)
Thinking about it, I am going to integrate an ncurses parted frontend into the installer ....
Handy :)
Oh? Does the license allow that? Even so, it's still far more risk/hassle than we need I believe.
It can run from a boot disk, no install on target PC needed.
That's beside the point. Physical methods don't invalidate a license.
Good question, that is one minor problem with ghost.... perhaps a spare 40G HDD?? Or setup a ghost server on a PC with some disk space and ghost over a network?
...NIC support...image size...etc. Anyway, as I said, are you volunteering to do this? Also, to Wayne, who decided that because a process "works for him" it's infallible, and 100% safe for all, I've seen plenty of PM partitioning problems in my time, and it's the benchmark. So forgive me if I don't really want to see the WLUG put its balls on the block guaranteeing the safety of the user's data. -- Greig McGill
Perhaps the question needs to be asked: what is the purpose of the Install-fest? Or more specifically, what will the user do with his new install? If he wants to experience the Linux phenomenon and yet be able to return to his original system to do his usual work, a dual-booted scenario is overkill -- a Knoppix-style distribution will suffice. If he wants to _use_ Linux for common activities (this will vary with the person and the distribution) such as email, chat, browsing, printing, backing-up to CDs, editing, office work, etc, then why does he need to retain his original OS? Quite likely, he wants to use an application that is not currently provided with Linux (or some such) or someone in the house prefers Windows. In these cases, my suggestion would be that he acquire another computer. When would I recommend dual-booting? ------------------------------------ Only as a last resort and if the following requirements are met: - important data has already been backed up - the user won't have a problem if all data on the HD is lost (requiring re-installation of both OSs). I have installed Linux on a free partition and then ended up not being able to boot into Windows 9X (I overwrote the MBR). Another time, I wasn't able to boot into Linux (lilo wasn't playing with me - more likely I didn't know the rules of the game). In both cases, I had backups, and the HD could be and was wiped.[1] With the better-behaved W2K, things are easier. Perhaps GRUB makes things easier still. But I would have the same requirements mentioned above -- it just isn't worth it! At times it is better to suggest that the newbie wait and use Knoppix instead. If he can't wait, he will find a way to meet the requirements. Whatever requirements that the installers settle on, it may be better to state them simply (_not_ as ominous warnings) on all publicity and confirm verbally before the install rather than asking for a signature. Signatures would take the festival out of the install-fest. -Sid [1] IIRC, to handle a Win9X/Linux dual-boot, I settled on the following procedure (no doubt there are better ways): 1. Boot from Linux CD 2. Use fdisk to create fat32 and Linux/Swap partitions (HD erased) 3. Install Win98 4. Install Linux 5. Configure lilo appropriately
* s swami <sns(a)paradise.net.nz> [2004-04-17 05:47]:
I have installed Linux on a free partition and then ended up not being able to boot into Windows 9X (I overwrote the MBR). Another time, I wasn't able to boot into Linux (lilo wasn't playing with me - more likely I didn't know the rules of the game). In both cases, I had backups, and the HD could be and was wiped.[1]
Win9x/ME boot from their partitions' boot sector. If you install Windows first, then Linux afterwards, you can and should install LILO to MBR. With the appropriate bootmenu entries you can boot Win9x without any problems. The problem is reinstalling Win9x: it will overwrite the MBR uninvited and lock you out of Linux. This is trivial to fix with *any* Linux boot media on hand, though.
With the better-behaved W2K, things are easier.
IME, WinNT derivatives are harder to get to play along. In case of a WinNT-derived OS I'd rather install LILO to the Linux partition bootsector and then go through the contortions necessary to make the Windows bootloader offer Linux on its menu. This is a lot more work than with Win9x.
At times it is better to suggest that the newbie wait and use Knoppix instead. If he can't wait, he will find a way to meet the requirements.
For sure it is better for people to use a LiveCD to get their first impression before they decide to go whole hog. This is something that should be suggested *before* the installfest though, so you don't get a flood of people carrying their computer in just to be sent home with a Knoppix CD -- a waste of everyone's time and the novice's effort.
Whatever requirements that the installers settle on, it may be better to state them simply (_not_ as ominous warnings) on all publicity and confirm verbally before the install rather than asking for a signature. Signatures would take the festival out of the install-fest.
Should any user get upset about his loss of data and make claims, however, that confirmation will be as good as no confirmation at all. The signature is necessary, there's no way around this. Of course there is no need to raise panic. Indeed, it is likely that noone will have any troubles -- but it's better to be safe than sorry. Both for the user, who should have backups, and for the WLUG, which should have signatures. At the installfest organized by my local LUG, resizing was not an option we offered, although those who came prepared for it would have been offered a dualboot installation. We also required people to sign that any damage would be their own liability. In the end, noone had any trouble, and the few who got a dualboot install came with an extra HD to dedicate to Linux. -- Regards, Aristotle "If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't take life seriously enough."
On Saturday 17 April 2004 19:18, A. Pagaltzis generously corrected me:
Win9x/ME boot from their partitions' boot sector. If you install Windows first, then Linux afterwards, you can and should install LILO to MBR. With the appropriate bootmenu entries you can boot Win9x without any problems.
The problem is reinstalling Win9x: it will overwrite the MBR uninvited and lock you out of Linux. This is trivial to fix with *any* Linux boot media on hand, though. ... IME, WinNT derivatives are harder to get to play along. In case of a WinNT-derived OS I'd rather install LILO to the Linux partition bootsector and then go through the contortions necessary to make the Windows bootloader offer Linux on its menu. This is a lot more work than with Win9x. ...
At times it is better to suggest that the newbie wait and use Knoppix instead. If he can't wait, he will find a way to meet the requirements.
For sure it is better for people to use a LiveCD to get their first impression before they decide to go whole hog. This is something that should be suggested *before* the installfest though, so you don't get a flood of people carrying their computer in just to be sent home with a Knoppix CD -- a waste of everyone's time and the novice's effort.
Indeed, that was my assumption.
Whatever requirements that the installers settle on, it may be better to state them simply (_not_ as ominous warnings) on all publicity and confirm verbally before the install rather than asking for a signature. Signatures would take the festival out of the install-fest.
Should any user get upset about his loss of data and make claims, however, that confirmation will be as good as no confirmation at all. The signature is necessary, there's no way around this.
A signature is indeed safest.
... At the installfest organized by my local LUG, resizing was not an option we offered, although those who came prepared for it would have been offered a dualboot installation. We also required people to sign that any damage would be their own liability. In the end, noone had any trouble, and the few who got a dualboot install came with an extra HD to dedicate to Linux.
Yes, this is probably what we should suggest. Matt seems to have reached a similar conclusion on the exec list, but with a little more vigour ;-) Thanks Aristotle, -Sid. P.S. There is a machine on my little network named aris.logic.net :-) Incidentally, the others are godel and tarski - fine company if I say so myself.
A. Pagaltzis wrote:
IME, WinNT derivatives are harder to get to play along. In case of a WinNT-derived OS I'd rather install LILO to the Linux partition bootsector and then go through the contortions necessary to make the Windows bootloader offer Linux on its menu. This is a lot more work than with Win9x.
Not that it's important, but I've always found Win XP behaves similarly to Win 9X. Pointing LILO to its partition is sufficient to make it boot (on my computer), and installing Win XP overwrites the MBR.in the same annoying way. -- Jason Le Vaillant
Pity this issue had to become a long drawn out debate, hopefully something came of it? I think the idea of asking Symantic if they would do some sort of sponsorship with Ghost would be a great idea. Since they have taken over PowerQuest and integrated PQMAGIC as part of ghost it will kill many birds with one stone. The original idea was to make it as easy as possible for someone to make the move to Linux, but it seems that it is going to remain an exercise for the techno geek. Someone commented on why anyone who wanted to move to linux would wont to keep windows on the HDD, well there are many things Linux will not do, or do well enough or in a simple manor that would require going into windows on the odd occasion. Also a person might wont to migrate their existing data into Linux, which rules out things like Knoppix as it still requires somewhere to maintain a persistent presence. Perhaps the other side of the coin is "buy an all in one sub $1000 HP and forget about Linux".
Someone commented on why anyone who wanted to move to linux would wont to keep windows on the HDD, well there are many things Linux will not do, or do well enough or in a simple manor that would require going into windows on the odd occasion.
Specifically play many games. The main reason I imagine most people on this list would still retain a Windows partition for. Office runs well enough under Wine (particularly with Codeweavers CrossOver Office product). In fact runing Windows apps under Wine gives me something that I can't get in Windows without lots of $$ or piracy. That is PDF output from every app that prints. Just by hanging |kprinter off the LPT definition in the wine config. Much cheaper than buying Acrobat Distiller/PDF Printer Driver. There are of course other apps that don't run well with Wine which could tie a user to their Windows desktop. Ironically Microsoft's dominance of the Desktop PC would has made it considerably easier for us to create compatibility layers and the like. Imagine how much harder it would be to get people to migrate to Linux if there was a 50/50 split between Windows XP and OS/2 6 (or whatever version). Or even if there were more office suites out there. Like WordPerfect or Ami Pro or even Lotus Smart Suite. Because these products have been so marginalised by Microsoft's Anti-Competitive behaviour in the desktop OS & application market we don't really have to care too much about providing a migration path to Linux for users of those products. :) Of course the software industry (ha, what a misnomer) would be much more health if we did have those other alternatives still. Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver.jones(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com
In fact runing Windows apps under Wine gives me something that I can't get in Windows without lots of $$ or piracy. That is PDF output from every app that prints. Just by hanging |kprinter off the LPT definition in the wine config. Much cheaper than buying Acrobat Distiller/PDF Printer Driver.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/ or http://www.primopdf.com/ Do your research. kthxbye :-)
At 17:56 18/04/2004, you wrote:
I think the idea of asking Symantic if they would do some sort of sponsorship with Ghost would be a great idea.
Great. Where can I download the source code?
You cant, but sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to get the job done <grin> and if a commercial pay for it product will do the job a hell of allot better than any free product then so be it <grin>. Also if symantic would be willing to give away some copies then take it!! it will do a good job, better than any oss solutions <grin>
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You cant, but sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to get the job done <grin> and if a commercial pay for it product will do the job a hell of allot better than any free product then so be it <grin>.
Also if symantic would be willing to give away some copies then take it!! it will do a good job, better than any oss solutions <grin>
Please go and buy a copy of Windows and quit the LUG. Craig
You cant, but sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to get the job done <grin> and if a commercial pay for it product will do the job a hell of allot better than any free product then so be it <grin>.
Also if symantic would be willing to give away some copies then take it!! it will do a good job, better than any oss solutions <grin>
Please go and buy a copy of Windows and quit the LUG.
I had prepared a lengthy rant about the reliability of Free software tools, the number of times I've used knoppix to recover files from a windows machine that no longer boots, and the disaster I recently had to deal with after a user tried to use Ghost to copy an ext3 filesystem. However, I'm starting to think that DrWho "just doesn't get it". WLUG exists to promote and support Free operating systems and Free software. There are Free tools that will safely backup a Windows filesystem. There are Free tools that will repartition a harddrive. The only issue here is that backing up takes time, repartitioning is never without risk, and the general concensus is we should do neither. Let's focus on promotion; has anyone contacted any of the 'free' papers to see if they'll run an article for us? Does anyone object if I go ahead with it?
On Sun, 2004-04-18 at 21:11, zcat wrote:
Let's focus on promotion; has anyone contacted any of the 'free' papers to see if they'll run an article for us? Does anyone object if I go ahead with it?
Please read the bottom of the InstallFest page. I have contacted the Hamilton Press and while they do not offer free advertising we have been asked to submit an item for their News In Brief section. We may try and get a longer article accepted. If you want to contact another publication you are most welcome, however PLEASE check with me BEFORE you send anything so that I can ensure that a) The publication has not already been contacted b) The details you are distributing are correct I welcome help from everyone in the LUG to promote the InstallFest but we do need to ensure that it is done in a controlled manner. -- Matt Brown Email: matt(a)mattb.net.nz GSM : 021 611 544
Pity this issue had to become a long drawn out debate, hopefully something came of it?
It is a pity. More so because the original point was never up for debate. Suggestions made along the way are more viable, however we aren't running a backupathon or a repartitionfest.
The original idea was to make it as easy as possible for someone to make the move to Linux,
Actually, the original point of the installfest is to help people install linux. More to the point, it's to help people who want to learn, to install linux. We cannot act as a free support group for people with no desire to learn about these things themselves. Nor is this a ridiculous position to hold. "Helping new users" does NOT equate to "free technical support for people who want appliances".
but it seems that it is going to remain an exercise for the techno geek.
How does suggesting that people have a separate harddisk for linux limit this to "an exercise for the techno geek" ? How does suggesting that people be responsible for their own backups do that? If people want to go and buy Partition Magic they are more than welcome to. How does that make it "an exercise for the techno geek"?
Also a person might wont to migrate their existing data into Linux, which rules out things like Knoppix as it still requires somewhere to maintain a persistent presence.
While superficially true, this doesn't always apply. Regardless, I'm not sure knoppix was ever suggested as an installfest candidate - it has only ever been suggested as a way of people trying linux out, in lieu of buying a new harddisk or repartitioning their existing one *and installing linux on it*.
Perhaps the other side of the coin is "buy an all in one sub $1000 HP and forget about Linux"
If they already have a computer which they want to install Linux on, why should they buy a new HP computer? If what you are suggesting is true - that if the LUG doesn't hand-hold new users into repartitioning harddisks and installing Linux, then non "techo geeks" won't get Linux installed, then how did the large number of non "techo geeks" that are members of this LUG and who HAVE linux installed already, get there? Can you please stop with this line of negative commentary. It is basically amounting to FUD. And if you really are so concerned about the way the LUG is handling this then you'd better follow through and step up and help us out, instead of criticising from the sidelines. Feel free to offer to run a beginners topic meeting any time - apparently we aren't doing enough of those. Daniel
* Daniel Lawson <daniel(a)meta.net.nz> [2004-04-18 10:15]:
And if you really are so concerned about the way the LUG is handling this then you'd better follow through and step up and help us out, instead of criticising from the sidelines. Feel free to offer to run a beginners topic meeting any time - apparently we aren't doing enough of those.
I recommend everyone to read Gary L. Murphy's excellent "Barnraising your IT" article at Advogato at some point: http://advogato.org/article/482.html Favourite quote: There is no "vendor" in this world, there is only "we". -- Regards, Aristotle "If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't take life seriously enough."
participants (12)
-
A. Pagaltzis -
Andreas Girardet -
Craig Box -
Daniel Lawson -
DrWho? -
Greig McGill -
Jason Le Vaillant -
Matt Brown -
Oliver Jones -
Orion Edwards -
s swami -
zcat