Fibre Connection -- Separating Modem & Router Functions
Most people probably have their internet connection provided through a single box. There are two separate functions going on: * “Modem” (layer 2) -- handling the low-level signalling with whatever is at the other end of the wire (whether copper or glass); * “Router” (layer 3) -- routing TCP/IP packets between your house LAN and your ISP, which provides the connection between there and the rest of the Internet. At one point I was running a cheap little Conexant AccessRunner USB box (bought from Dick Smith) on my ADSL connection; while this could also perform both functions in one, I found a version of the firmware that implemented only the modem function. Plugging this into a Linux box caused it to appear like an additional network interface (the drivers are already in the standard kernel). I could then control this via the “ppp” package <https://ppp.samba.org/>, using its PPP-over-ATM plugin to implement the correct low-level signalling (just VPI/VCI selection, really). I could then exploit the full power of the Linux network stack on that box to manage the connection to the rest of my house LAN. Anyway, as my own house gets wired up for fibre (soon...), I was curious as to whether something equivalent could be done for a fibre connection. And the information I’ve found so far (e.g. <https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=81&topicid=274586>) indicates it might actually be simpler than this. The “ONT” (“Optical Network Terminator”) box that gets installed in your house has phone ports and Ethernet ports on it, and it appears that (once you have your ISP connection up and running) the Ethernet connection behaves just like a regular LAN connection, with a DHCP server (and ISP’s router) listening on the other end. So instead of an Internet router at your end, you can plug a regular PC directly into that port, pick up an allocated address, and have it immediately connected to the Internet. In short, there is nothing fibre-specific about the Internet router that the ISP provides to you at all. However, there might be issues with VLAN-tagging of the Ethernet frames, and this is not standardized between ISPs. (By the way, I see several folks claiming there is no “modem” in a fibre connection. Of course there is.) Not sure whether I’ll try this right away. Might be safest to do things the ISP-provided way, at least to begin with.
-------- Original Message --------
Most people probably have their internet connection provided through a single box. There are two separate functions going on:
* “Modem” (layer 2) -- handling the low-level signalling with whatever is at the other end of the wire (whether copper or glass); * “Router” (layer 3) -- routing TCP/IP packets between your house LAN and your ISP, which provides the connection between there and the rest of the Internet.
At one point I was running a cheap little Conexant AccessRunner USB box (bought from Dick Smith) on my ADSL connection; while this could also perform both functions in one, I found a version of the firmware that implemented only the modem function. Plugging this into a Linux box caused it to appear like an additional network interface (the drivers are already in the standard kernel). I could then control this via the “ppp” package <https://ppp.samba.org/>, using its PPP-over-ATM plugin to implement the correct low-level signalling (just VPI/VCI selection, really). I could then exploit the full power of the Linux network stack on that box to manage the connection to the rest of my house LAN.
Anyway, as my own house gets wired up for fibre (soon...), I was curious as to whether something equivalent could be done for a fibre connection. And the information I’ve found so far (e.g. <https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=81&topicid=274586>) indicates it might actually be simpler than this. The “ONT” (“Optical Network Terminator”) box that gets installed in your house has phone ports and Ethernet ports on it, and it appears that (once you have your ISP connection up and running) the Ethernet connection behaves just like a regular LAN connection, with a DHCP server (and ISP’s router) listening on the other end. So instead of an Internet router at your end, you can plug a regular PC directly into that port, pick up an allocated address, and have it immediately connected to the Internet.
In short, there is nothing fibre-specific about the Internet router that the ISP provides to you at all. However, there might be issues with VLAN-tagging of the Ethernet frames, and this is not standardized between ISPs.
(By the way, I see several folks claiming there is no “modem” in a fibre connection. Of course there is.)
Not sure whether I’ll try this right away. Might be safest to do things the ISP-provided way, at least to begin with. _______________________________________________ wlug mailing list -- wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz | To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Unsubscribe: https://list.waikato.ac.nz/postorius/lists/wlug.list.waikato.ac.nz Here's how it works at my home:
The ONT has one ethernet port activated, normally port 1. The connection to my ISP (and thus the rest of the internet) is made using PPPoE, which is a tunneling protocol. The ONT alone cannot cannot initiate this tunnel, I either have to plug in the router and configure a PPPoE connection on the WAN port so that the tunnel is created, or, plug a computer with a network cable and configure a PPPoE connection on that computer's network port so that the tunnel is created. Simply plugging a computer into the ONT with a cable doesn't work here. Your ISP may be different. Cheers, Wayne
On 15/05/23 22:24, Wayne Rooney wrote:
-------- Original Message --------
Most people probably have their internet connection provided through a single box. There are two separate functions going on:
* “Modem” (layer 2) -- handling the low-level signalling with whatever is at the other end of the wire (whether copper or glass); * “Router” (layer 3) -- routing TCP/IP packets between your house LAN and your ISP, which provides the connection between there and the rest of the Internet.
At one point I was running a cheap little Conexant AccessRunner USB box (bought from Dick Smith) on my ADSL connection; while this could also perform both functions in one, I found a version of the firmware that implemented only the modem function. Plugging this into a Linux box caused it to appear like an additional network interface (the drivers are already in the standard kernel). I could then control this via the “ppp” package <https://ppp.samba.org/>, using its PPP-over-ATM plugin to implement the correct low-level signalling (just VPI/VCI selection, really). I could then exploit the full power of the Linux network stack on that box to manage the connection to the rest of my house LAN.
Anyway, as my own house gets wired up for fibre (soon...), I was curious as to whether something equivalent could be done for a fibre connection. And the information I’ve found so far (e.g. <https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=81&topicid=274586>) indicates it might actually be simpler than this. The “ONT” (“Optical Network Terminator”) box that gets installed in your house has phone ports and Ethernet ports on it, and it appears that (once you have your ISP connection up and running) the Ethernet connection behaves just like a regular LAN connection, with a DHCP server (and ISP’s router) listening on the other end. So instead of an Internet router at your end, you can plug a regular PC directly into that port, pick up an allocated address, and have it immediately connected to the Internet.
In short, there is nothing fibre-specific about the Internet router that the ISP provides to you at all. However, there might be issues with VLAN-tagging of the Ethernet frames, and this is not standardized between ISPs.
(By the way, I see several folks claiming there is no “modem” in a fibre connection. Of course there is.)
Not sure whether I’ll try this right away. Might be safest to do things the ISP-provided way, at least to begin with. _______________________________________________ wlug mailing list -- wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz | To unsubscribe send an email to wlug-leave(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Unsubscribe: https://list.waikato.ac.nz/postorius/lists/wlug.list.waikato.ac.nz Here's how it works at my home:
The ONT has one ethernet port activated, normally port 1.
The connection to my ISP (and thus the rest of the internet) is made using PPPoE, which is a tunneling protocol. The ONT alone cannot cannot initiate this tunnel, I either have to plug in the router and configure a PPPoE connection on the WAN port so that the tunnel is created, or, plug a computer with a network cable and configure a PPPoE connection on that computer's network port so that the tunnel is created.
Simply plugging a computer into the ONT with a cable doesn't work here.
Your ISP may be different.
Cheers,
That's the only way I've ever seen it done, across several different retail ISPs. Glenn
On Mon, 15 May 2023 22:24:47 +1200, Wayne Rooney wrote:
... I either have to plug in the router and configure a PPPoE connection on the WAN port so that the tunnel is created, or, plug a computer with a network cable and configure a PPPoE connection on that computer's network port so that the tunnel is created.
OK, so no more complex than ADSL, then. With my ADSL connection, the only parameters I remember needing to configure were the VPI (“Virtual Path Identifier”) which was 0, and the VCI (“Virtual Circuit Identifier”) which was 100. I think these numbers were common across NZ ISPs. Presumably I can get these parameters from the router, if I am provided with one. Are your numbers the same as above? It would be nice to think they carried over a compatible convention ...
I wrote:
With my ADSL connection, the only parameters I remember needing to configure were the VPI (“Virtual Path Identifier”) which was 0, and the VCI (“Virtual Circuit Identifier”) which was 100. I think these numbers were common across NZ ISPs.
Presumably I can get these parameters from the router, if I am provided with one.
Oops, sorry, those parameters would only be applicable to ATM, not Ethernet.
To throw in two cents from my experiences/observations... The ONT box provided (for Hamilton area) by Tuatahi First Fibre (formerly Ultra-Fast Fibre) was a Hauwei EchoLife HG8240H. Probably bulk purchased in their thousands prior to the 5-Eyes anti-Hauwei campaign was launched. As well as a Fibre port it has 4 x Ethernet RJ45 Ports at 1Gb/s each and two RJ11 telephone ports. You have to provide the electrical power to run the ONT box. Some models of ONT box have a port to plug in a battery backup unit to continue to provide you with an internet connection when there is a power outage to your house. As an aside... remember the old days of household telephones and how the phone company provided the 48V DC to make your phone operate. When you had a power outage you could still make phone calls. What an amazing design concept / service provider! On the outside of your house is a External Termination Point (ETP) box. This does not require any electrical power. This is where what appears like one fibre optic cable arrives from a Tuatahi distribution box somewhere in your street. The cable contains two fibre optic strands, but only one is used. I.e. Both transmit and receive is done over the one fibre optic strand. From the ETA box on the outside of your house, to the ONT box inside your house a robust form of dual fibre optics cable is run through your ceiling and inside your walls, etc. Again only one fibre optic strand is used. The ONT box has a web-based set-up and configuration. E.g. See this service manual https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1144404/Huawei-Hg8240.html . Theoretically you should be able to log in and manage the ONT box by entering 192.168.100.1 into your browser and entering the account and password. However the ONT box is always the property of Tuatahi and I suspect you will find that they don't hand out the password. The ONT set-up in NZ is designed for one house to have 4 x bedrooms and 4 x flatmates. Each flatmate uses their own ISP (E.g. Spark, Vodafone, Orcom, Skinny) and has been provided by their ISP with a router/wifi to locate in their bedroom. They run an Ethernet cable from their ISP's router to the Tuatahi ONT box and plug into their allocated port of the 4 x LAN ports on the ONT. I recollect reading that the HG8240H ONT box allows receiving/transmitting data over the fibre at about 3Gb/s. In theory all 4 x Ethernet ports could be transmitting/receiving at 1Gb/s. But then the maths doesn't add up and the fibre is the bottleneck and falls short by 1Gb/s. Thus in a four flatmates scenario they theoretically don't all get 1Gb/s, but with a three flatmate scenario they should all be able to stream simultaneously at 1Gb/s. However, as we move to HyperFibre and 8Gb/s then better performance ONT boxes are a requirement. Hauwei and other ONT manufacturers, don't limit themselves in their ONT designs to just catering for the NZ 4 x flatmates/4 x ISP's market. In another country you might have an ONT box that includes a router providing all the Ethernet and wifi for your home. This avoids the need to waste power and desk space on an ISP provided router, which also doesn't have battery backup. Using such an ONT box in NZ would effectively make Tuatahi the only necessary ISP and the other ISP's would not be required. Oh dear, shock / horror, we couldn't have that! I have seen documentation that shows a single computer set-up directly connected to the allocated Ethernet port on the ONT box. It's just when you need a local LAN with more Ethernet connections and wifi, then you need the ISP provided router. So, I believe your ONT can go directly to a PC provided this link is using PPPoE, and this PC can then provide the routing and wifi for your home, and thus avoid the need for an ISP provided router. E.g. Install OpenWrt (x86/amd64 version) on your PC. See https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/installation/openwrt_x86 . Run your PC and the ONT off a battery backup unit and you might actually be able to keep going when the power drops out. cheers, Ian.
On Tue, 16 May 2023 12:23:24 +1200, Ian Stewart wrote:
As an aside... remember the old days of household telephones and how the phone company provided the 48V DC to make your phone operate. When you had a power outage you could still make phone calls. What an amazing design concept / service provider!
That was always my concern with the idea of moving to a VoIP phone connection. But it appears the days of the copper network are numbered anyway. The assumption seems to be that people will have mobile phones (with some degree of charge left in them) to make emergency calls in the event of a power failure.
On the outside of your house is a External Termination Point (ETP) box. This does not require any electrical power. This is where what appears like one fibre optic cable arrives from a Tuatahi distribution box somewhere in your street.
First a crew comes and lays down an empty tube between the wall of your house and a hole in the street. Then another crew connects the street end of this empty tube to an allocated empty one of a bundle of 24 tubes running along your part of the street -- this will provide the path for a continuous run of fibre between your house and some central connection point -- the guys I spoke to said there were just two of these in Hamilton, and the one I was to be connected to is in the Government Life building. However, in my case, they couldn’t find that bundle of 24. A few different crews came and went. Then a pair of guys came back repeatedly over several days, hunting round, digging a few holes, and finally found it, in a slightly different place from where the plan said it had been laid. And on the wrong side of the driveway to the rear house from the hole that had already been dug to connect to my house. But that’s OK. Another crew came a few days ago, connected the two ends, and blew the fibre through. So that’s my Layer 1 connection done.
Theoretically you should be able to log in and manage the ONT box by entering 192.168.100.1 into your browser and entering the account and password. However the ONT box is always the property of Tuatahi and I suspect you will find that they don't hand out the password.
Yeah, hopefully I don’t need to do that. ;)
Using such an ONT box in NZ would effectively make Tuatahi the only necessary ISP and the other ISP's would not be required. Oh dear, shock / horror, we couldn't have that!
I’m sure such an option would be very popular in countries with toothless anti-trust competition watchdogs. Like the USA.
So, I believe your ONT can go directly to a PC provided this link is using PPPoE ...
I wonder if that depends on the ISP, though? Some use PPPoE, others might set up a simple point-to-point LAN connection as per that discussion thread I referenced.
E.g. Install OpenWrt (x86/amd64 version) on your PC.
That would be for a dedicated router. In my case, I would want to use the same machine I use for data backups and some other long-duration, low-priority functions. The standard “ppp” package in Debian includes a lot of options, including plugins for handling both PPP-over-Ethernet and PPP-over-ATM, so I will give that a try. Thanks for your help.
Pleased to see that the Department of Digging Holes and their contingent of sub-contractors are still in business. The lane that I live in kept them busy for days. In my case they even implemented, "when you find you can't horizontally bore in one direction, then horizontally bore in the opposite direction".
E.g. Install OpenWrt (x86/amd64 version) on your PC. That would be for a dedicated router. In my case, I would want to use the same machine I use for data backups and some other long-duration, low-priority functions.
Hmmm... An old desktop PC with 2 x Ethernets running OpenWrt would allow you to use a GUI for configuration and get a proof-of-concept device running and tested. You could then take a look at the linux networking that OpenWrt has implemented. ...then invoke this networking on your real router/firewall/backup machine.
On Tue, 16 May 2023 15:34:40 +1200, Ian Stewart wrote:
Pleased to see that the Department of Digging Holes and their contingent of sub-contractors are still in business.
They said the contractors who came through a few years ago and laid all those main trunk tubes cut corners to get the whole of Hamilton done in two years. And didn’t properly document what they’d done (lines in the wrong place on maps). And didn’t join up those passive metal wires that are included in each tube segment to allow them to be detected electromagnetically from above ground. Etc etc.
Hmmm... An old desktop PC with 2 x Ethernets running OpenWrt would allow you to use a GUI for configuration and get a proof-of-concept device running and tested.
Sure. But I prefer text config files. That way I can try changes and do diffs to see what I did different, if something works in one situation but not in another. And easily backup/restore setups. And I can not only insert comments in scripts to explain what they are doing, I can also include commented-out sections with explanations of why they won’t work (in case I get the same bad idea again). Call it the “stream-of-consciousness” approach to system configuration, if you will. ;)
participants (4)
-
Glenn Ramsey -
Ian Stewart -
Lawrence D'Oliveiro -
Wayne Rooney