September meeting - Novell and Linux - THIS THURSDAY
The Waikato Linux Users Group monthly meeting for September is entitled "Novell and Linux". Our guest speaker is Paul Kangro from Novell. All are welcome to attend. Refreshments provided. Novell are famous for their NetWare operating system, and more recently for their purchases of the SuSe Linux distribution and Ximian (a company working on Linux desktop software such as GNOME and the Evolution groupware client). They are now the most active contributor to the GNOME project, the KDE project, Mono, and Evolution, as well as the #2 contributor to the Mozilla project and OpenOffice.org. Paul is Novell's Solutions Manager for Australia and New Zealand. He has previously worked for IBM, Cable & Wireless Optus, and Nortel Networks. 7pm, Thursday 23rd September Room: LitB.G.02 (down the hill from R block, off Hillcrest Rd) or park in the big carpark at Gate 1 off Knighton Rd and walk up the hill past the ITS building http://www.waikato.ac.nz/perl-bin/map/tt-map.pl?term=litb University of Waikato http://www.wlug.org.nz/MeetingTopics.2004-09-23
Greetings all. Several matters have arisen at tonight's committee meeting which require some input from the WLUG in general. PLEASE read this email, and offer your input - preferably offlist, but onlist if you'd like feedback from other WLUG members. 1. WLUG Funding Last year, the committee attempted to raise funds for the purchase of a mobile test rig/demo lab consisting of a server, a workstation, and several peripherals for use in presentations, training, and perhaps community education. We were declined on all three attempts, but will be trying again this year. What we need to know is: Is this a good goal for funding? Do you have a better idea? Is there a service you would like to see the WLUG provide that is currently unrealistic due to funding restrictions? Keep in mind that funding must be applied for with a specific project in mind, as funding cannot be used to meet ongoing running costs, or allow for events that may not happen. 2. New and Inexperienced Users As mentioned at the AGM, the WLUG has been accused of being unsupportive of new or inexperienced users. It was explained that the *active* members of the WLUG, ie. the ones who do all the work, are experienced users, and are thus unlikely to arrange meetings on beginner topics, or arrange installfests, which they have little desire to attend. We don't wish to alienate the new or inexperienced users however, but we need some of them to step up, and volunteer to present some beginner topics, arrange workshops, and perhaps start a "beginner stream". You will have the full backing, and support of the "old hands" - just tell us what you need. I repeat TELL US WHAT YOU NEED! Nothing is more demoralising than being complained at for not providing something which no one has ever told us they wanted. We do have something scheduled for the new people. October's meeting will be dedicated to using the WLUG resources - the Wiki, mailing list, effective use of Google, etc. It will also feature a live "fixup workshop". This will consist of people bringing their "broken" setups, and we will pick a few, and solve them, live, on the projector. This will not only get the problem fixed, but will show the troubleshooting process, and hopefully demystify the black-magic aspect of what the 'gurus' of the group do. Details will follow. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Regards, Greig McGill ElPresidente :)
--- Greig McGill <greig(a)hamiltron.net> wrote: Greetings all.
1. WLUG Funding
Last year, the committee attempted to raise funds for the purchase of a mobile test rig/demo lab consisting of a server, a workstation, and several peripherals for use in presentations, training, and perhaps community education.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
2. New and Inexperienced Users As mentioned at the AGM, the WLUG has been accused of being unsupportive of new or inexperienced users.
I do not see it as an accusation just frustration a bit. I fully accept that beginners have to do the yards and use Google etc, but there is a limit. I have had pretty good support since using the Wiki and Mail-List but would appreciate the coming meeting about these topics and there inclusion in the Wiki.
We don't wish to alienate the new or inexperienced users however, but we need some of them to step up, and volunteer to present some beginner topics, arrange workshops, and perhaps start a "beginner stream". You will have the full backing, and support of the "old hands" - just tell us what you need.
I love Linux and the challenge and freedom it gives let alone the cost etc. But from what I have seen and my attempts to use it, things get difficult when trying to get everything to work. Like Win Modems, WLAN etc. I believe that users are at different levels and their needs are different. The idea of a beginners stream sounds good. But we probably need more beginners involved. Linux is maturing fast, but to be a serious contender it needs to be able to work completely. I agree the average user does not install Windows or tinker with it much, but with Linux you have to tinker quite a lot to get things configured and working. As I mentioned at the AGM, WLUG does not advertise itself very well, nothing at the Citizens Advice Bureau or in the LOOT to name just 2 freebies.
We do have something scheduled for the new people. October's meeting will be dedicated to using the WLUG resources - the Wiki, mailing list, effective use of Google, etc. It will also feature a live "fixup workshop".
That will be great, and appreciated heaps. I understand the difficulty about having newbies and gurus but there must be away to accomodate both. BTW my thoughts are meant to helpful and I am willing to do my bit as a beginner, I have learnt heaps in the 10 months I have been using Linux. A lot of that because of WLUG members and the presentations given. Bill __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Bill Rosoman wrote:
I do not see it as an accusation just frustration a bit. I fully accept that beginners have to do the yards and use Google etc, but there is a limit.
Yes, though we have been blatantly accused of being "eliteist" in the past. :)
I have had pretty good support since using the Wiki and Mail-List but would appreciate the coming meeting about these topics and there inclusion in the Wiki.
The wiki is not an exclusive thing. With the exception of a few locked pages relating to the running of the society, and the maintaining of the wiki itself, anyone can add ANY content, whenever they like. Of course, that said, it makes life much easier for our poor hardworking wikignomes (thanks Craig, Aristotle, Perry, and all the rest) if the content is reasonably well constructed and logical. AdHoc required a fair bit of cleaning up! ;)
I love Linux and the challenge and freedom it gives let alone the cost etc. But from what I have seen and my attempts to use it, things get difficult when trying to get everything to work. Like Win Modems, WLAN etc. I believe that users are at different levels and their needs are different. The idea of a beginners stream sounds good. But we probably need more beginners involved.
We sure do. As I said earlier, the "old hands" have gotten very tired of practically BEGGING for new user involvement, and so we have just continued to do what we know how to do. It's a bit off when people complain. Ask not what your LUG can do for you, ask instead what you can do for your LUG! :) New / inexperienced users: Get involved! It doesn't matter if you don't think you know 100% of a topic. Ask someone for help presenting something if you like. A new user stream will only work if there is enough interest and involvement.
As I mentioned at the AGM, WLUG does not advertise itself very well, nothing at the Citizens Advice Bureau or in the LOOT to name just 2 freebies.
There are problems with this. The CAB is, in my opinion, pointless. Computer users do not ask the CAB, they use Google. If they are asking the CAB, they probably have the wrong mindset to start with! ;) The LOOT is aimed at people who are always penny pinching. They market themselves this way. We had lots of trouble at the installfest with people trying to run Linux on 486 machines, and wanting all the fruits of a modern distro. The Loot targets these people. We are targetting the type of user who reads Computerworld. We welcome *all* users, but we are not the Hamilton Computer Club. Our expected userbase are familiar with computers, and wish to utilise the power of Linux. Well, that turned into a bit of a rant! :)
That will be great, and appreciated heaps. I understand the difficulty about having newbies and gurus but there must be away to accomodate both.
There is, but it involves the newbies volunteering to do some work! :) Regards, Greig "The Fist" McGill
Are you insulting my 486's P1's and My p1 233 desktop lappy with wireless too ?? OK SO I AM A HORDER, BUT THEY STILL WORK Feather Linux - maybe I should do a talk on this, but I cant make Mondays ... so i still have a problem . .... ok so I have more than one problem ;-) On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 10:15 AM, Greig McGill wrote:
The LOOT is aimed at people who are always penny pinching. They market themselves this way. We had lots of trouble at the installfest with people trying to run Linux on 486 machines, and wanting all the fruits of a modern distro. The Loot targets these people.
We are targetting the type of user who reads Computerworld. We welcome *all* users, but we are not the Hamilton Computer Club. Our expected userbase are familiar with computers, and wish to utilise the power of Linux.
Well, that turned into a bit of a rant! :)
Gavin Denby wrote:
Are you insulting my 486's P1's and My p1 233 desktop lappy with wireless too ??
OK SO I AM A HORDER, BUT THEY STILL WORK
Feather Linux - maybe I should do a talk on this, but I cant make Mondays ... so i still have a problem . .... ok so I have more than one problem ;-)
A presentation on Linux for low end hardware would be nice. Not all of us have a machine capable of running FC2 at any reasonable speed.
Gavin Denby wrote:
Are you insulting my 486's P1's and My p1 233 desktop lappy with wireless too ??
OK SO I AM A HORDER, BUT THEY STILL WORK
There is a common misconception that Linux is only for old hardware. While it's true that Linux can be made to run well on older hardware, and breathe life into machines that might otherwise be considered useless, it is not the only use for it, and indeed most new development is going into support for new hardware and new technlogies (driven in a large way by the companies that make and use them). If you've never used a new Linux distribution on a new machine, you are missing out - while this obviously isn't within in everyones reach, please drop by a meeting or an installfest sometime and have a look at how things are going. We don't want to discourage people from using old hardware and Linux, but just because something 'still works' isn't always a good reason to keep it. Remember there are always plenty of people throwing out hardware of "reasonable spec" - I have a couple of Pentium Pro's free to a good home if anyone is still running 486s. So not insulting, but we don't want to be known only as a LUG of people running Linux on whatever they had lying around - a number of us use Linux on a daily basis on brand new production servers & workstations too. Craig
Craig Box wrote:
Gavin Denby wrote:
Are you insulting my 486's P1's and My p1 233 desktop lappy with wireless too ??
OK SO I AM A HORDER, BUT THEY STILL WORK
There is a common misconception that Linux is only for old hardware. While it's true that Linux can be made to run well on older hardware, and breathe life into machines that might otherwise be considered useless,
A lot of the reuse for older machines is in mini servers. a 486 will make a fairly reasonable router if you don't have much to route, and don't mind it perhaps finally reaching the end of its life in a few years. However it won't run a modern gui desktop, basically at all. You can cut the cruft off a machine that needs to do just one thing then run it on older hardware easily. If you're trying to get an old machine to work the same way as a modern machine then yeah, you will be disappointed.
Just to clarify . My linux boxes as at today Athlon 2600XP laptop Celeron 2.6Ghz Desktop PIII 700 MHZ Desktop/file server PIII 700 desktop AMD Duron 1100 Desktop/dual boot windows (video editing stuff) P1 133 server Mail + files p1 200 laptop desktop 486dx4100 web browser (feather test box) Amd 2500 XP desktop. 486 dx 33 - monitor system (basically an embedded system) Apple Mac Ibook My distros: Mandrake PPC PC linuxOS Fedora Slackware CollegeLinux Yoper Mepis FeatherLinux Deli Linux Vector Linux (yes some machines dual boot) So I think I have a pretty good grasp on the state of linux. But you can have your cake and eat it too with this lot. If only I could say it keeps me out of trouble. On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 11:36 AM, Craig Box wrote:
If you've never used a new Linux distribution on a new machine, you are missing out - while this obviously isn't within in everyones reach, please drop by a meeting or an installfest sometime and have a look at how things are going.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greig McGill wrote: | Greetings all. | | Several matters have arisen at tonight's committee meeting which require | some input from the WLUG in general. | | PLEASE read this email, and offer your input - preferably offlist, but | onlist if you'd like feedback from other WLUG members. | | 1. WLUG Funding | | Last year, the committee attempted to raise funds for the purchase of a | mobile test rig/demo lab consisting of a server, a workstation, and | several peripherals for use in presentations, training, and perhaps | community education. | | We were declined on all three attempts, but will be trying again this | year. What we need to know is: Is this a good goal for funding? Do | you have a better idea? Is there a service you would like to see the | WLUG provide that is currently unrealistic due to funding restrictions? | Keep in mind that funding must be applied for with a specific project in | mind, as funding cannot be used to meet ongoing running costs, or allow | for events that may not happen. Trying to get funding for anything that does not involve sport or community interests is very hard. How about members donating old equipment? this may mean getting not so modern equipment but at least it will cost nothing and be no great loss if damaged. | | 2. New and Inexperienced Users | | As mentioned at the AGM, the WLUG has been accused of being unsupportive | of new or inexperienced users. It was explained that the *active* | members of the WLUG, ie. the ones who do all the work, are experienced | users, and are thus unlikely to arrange meetings on beginner topics, or | arrange installfests, which they have little desire to attend. The wiki has lots of useful information, but in saying that it is very generic and does not really cover any specific distro and since each one is different it does get very confusing. How about just remembering to mention a specific distro the information has been tested with. | | We don't wish to alienate the new or inexperienced users however, but we | need some of them to step up, and volunteer to present some beginner | topics, arrange workshops, and perhaps start a "beginner stream". You | will have the full backing, and support of the "old hands" - just tell | us what you need. I repeat TELL US WHAT YOU NEED! Nothing is more | demoralising than being complained at for not providing something which | no one has ever told us they wanted. People do not know what they need until they find it or experience a problem. How about some more HowTos on the wiki, and not just generic but distro specific. | | We do have something scheduled for the new people. October's meeting | will be dedicated to using the WLUG resources - the Wiki, mailing list, | effective use of Google, etc. It will also feature a live "fixup | workshop". This will consist of people bringing their "broken" setups, | and we will pick a few, and solve them, live, on the projector. This | will not only get the problem fixed, but will show the troubleshooting | process, and hopefully demystify the black-magic aspect of what the | 'gurus' of the group do. | | Details will follow. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged. | | Regards, | | Greig McGill | ElPresidente :) | | _______________________________________________ | wlug mailing list | wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz | Unsubscribe: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/wlug | | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBUizrn59nxBodCVURAuy8AKCqSnI0bTKoB7sospXghfpU98cSjgCgjpeU /mXXDAC5jhBZD4frIsdWuDg= =pFBI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
How about members donating old equipment? this may mean getting not so modern equipment but at least it will cost nothing and be no great loss if damaged.
For the presentation rig purpose, we wanted to buy some specific stuff - build a rack to house 3 machines, put in a KVM, etc. "Most people" who do presentations have enough hardware; we wanted something we could lend out to other people. It was more a "this would be cool to have" than "we need this". Please feel free to suggest something else. We have goals in education and community support; we think that these grants are worth pursuing. Little is lost if we don't get them.
The wiki has lots of useful information, but in saying that it is very generic and does not really cover any specific distro and since each one is different it does get very confusing.
^^^ Everyone who wonders why we are only prepared ||| to support Fedora or Debian, please read that again. Remember also that Linux is Linux is Linux...
How about just remembering to mention a specific distro the information has been tested with.
"We" do this in general (all the metanet pages for example say "this bit is for Debian, this for Red Hat" - so do the Cyrus/LDAP ones to name a couple); the wiki is edited by a great number of people, and not everyone who contributes is from the WLUG itself.
How about some more HowTos on the wiki, and not just generic but distro specific.
How about you write them, then. To my mind, there are a great number, especially locally written ones. I love using my FreeSwan to Cisco PIX howto as a great example. It's there because I needed to do it. I don't need to install a dial up modem. The people that -do- need to write the howtos. We'll edit them and clean them up! Otherwise, duplicating of effort is silly - if there is a good howto on TLDP.org or something, we may as well just link to it. Craig
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Craig Box wrote: |>How about members donating old equipment? this may mean getting not so |>modern equipment but at least it will cost nothing and be no great |>loss if damaged. | | | For the presentation rig purpose, we wanted to buy some specific stuff - | build a rack to house 3 machines, put in a KVM, etc. "Most people" who do | presentations have enough hardware; we wanted something we could lend out to | other people. It was more a "this would be cool to have" than "we need | this". Please feel free to suggest something else. | | We have goals in education and community support; we think that these grants | are worth pursuing. Little is lost if we don't get them. So true, but the problem is the people who approve the grants only know sports and culture as they see that as being of benefit to the whole community, not a special interest group. | | |>The wiki has lots of useful information, but in saying that it is very |>generic and does not really cover any specific distro and since each |>one is different it does get very confusing. | | | ^^^ Everyone who wonders why we are only prepared | ||| to support Fedora or Debian, please read that again. | | Remember also that Linux is Linux is Linux... So true, but some distros do things hardware wise differently from others as in the case of bttv, for example. | | |>How about just remembering to mention a specific distro the |>information has been tested with. | | | "We" do this in general (all the metanet pages for example say "this bit is | for Debian, this for Red Hat" - so do the Cyrus/LDAP ones to name a couple); | the wiki is edited by a great number of people, and not everyone who | contributes is from the WLUG itself. | | |>How about some more HowTos on the wiki, and not just generic but |>distro specific. | | | How about you write them, then. Easy said then done, and I am the one saying it. The big problem I have found is that there is a lot on you need to do this to get this going, but it is usually not needed as the information relates to an old distro. Case in point TV tuner cards and if you look I have made some changes to the Tv Tuner Howto. | | To my mind, there are a great number, especially locally written ones. I | love using my FreeSwan to Cisco PIX howto as a great example. It's there | because I needed to do it. I don't need to install a dial up modem. The | people that -do- need to write the howtos. We'll edit them and clean them | up! Sadly that is the problem. Hardware is the tricky one and is the one area where new users are going to get stuck. As an idea how hard would it be to add a section to the wiki where users can enter a list of their hardware and peripherals and get a report back ~ on any issues etc contributed from other wiki users? I know it would take a bit of work, but it could be fun and could even be of some benefit to the old hands. | | Otherwise, duplicating of effort is silly - if there is a good howto on | TLDP.org or something, we may as well just link to it. | | Craig | | _______________________________________________ | wlug mailing list | wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz | Unsubscribe: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/wlug | | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBUkjkn59nxBodCVURAsMrAJ9uKLg0v6i+F4OHy1TDFBYWIztZIACgtB/6 Qj91MnQfV0PSJqY8FkCXabs= =CfJo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
| To my mind, there are a great number, especially locally written ones. I | love using my FreeSwan to Cisco PIX howto as a great example. It's there | because I needed to do it. I don't need to install a dial up modem. The | people that -do- need to write the howtos. We'll edit them and clean them | up!
Sadly that is the problem. Hardware is the tricky one and is the one area where new users are going to get stuck.
As an idea how hard would it be to add a section to the wiki where users can enter a list of their hardware and peripherals and get a report back ~ on any issues etc contributed from other wiki users?
I know it would take a bit of work, but it could be fun and could even be of some benefit to the old hands.
If you're suggesting a place where prospective linux users can post a hardware list and get a "yea or nay" on whether it'll work, I'm not sure how well that'll work. You're better off looking at the myriad of HCL sites around the place, such as http://www.linuxquestions.org/hcl/index.php. Or asking on the mailing list. The wiki already has the infrastructure in place for people to do the reverse - post descriptions of their hardware and what they had to do to make it work. http://www.wlug.org.nz/HardwareNotes is an existing parent page Individual pages can be created and linked from there, or if it's just a small tidbit, it can be added in http://www.wlug.org.nz/MiscHardwareNotes
DrWho? wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Greig McGill wrote: | Greetings all. | | Several matters have arisen at tonight's committee meeting which require | some input from the WLUG in general. | | PLEASE read this email, and offer your input - preferably offlist, but | onlist if you'd like feedback from other WLUG members. | | 1. WLUG Funding | | Last year, the committee attempted to raise funds for the purchase of a | mobile test rig/demo lab consisting of a server, a workstation, and | several peripherals for use in presentations, training, and perhaps | community education. | | We were declined on all three attempts, but will be trying again this | year. What we need to know is: Is this a good goal for funding? Do | you have a better idea? Is there a service you would like to see the | WLUG provide that is currently unrealistic due to funding restrictions? | Keep in mind that funding must be applied for with a specific project in | mind, as funding cannot be used to meet ongoing running costs, or allow | for events that may not happen.
Trying to get funding for anything that does not involve sport or community interests is very hard.
How about members donating old equipment? this may mean getting not so modern equipment but at least it will cost nothing and be no great loss if damaged.
| | 2. New and Inexperienced Users | | As mentioned at the AGM, the WLUG has been accused of being unsupportive | of new or inexperienced users. It was explained that the *active* | members of the WLUG, ie. the ones who do all the work, are experienced | users, and are thus unlikely to arrange meetings on beginner topics, or | arrange installfests, which they have little desire to attend.
The wiki has lots of useful information, but in saying that it is very generic and does not really cover any specific distro and since each one is different it does get very confusing.
How about just remembering to mention a specific distro the information has been tested with.
| | We don't wish to alienate the new or inexperienced users however, but we | need some of them to step up, and volunteer to present some beginner | topics, arrange workshops, and perhaps start a "beginner stream". You | will have the full backing, and support of the "old hands" - just tell | us what you need. I repeat TELL US WHAT YOU NEED! Nothing is more | demoralising than being complained at for not providing something which | no one has ever told us they wanted.
People do not know what they need until they find it or experience a problem.
How about some more HowTos on the wiki, and not just generic but distro specific.
We have some distro specific ones: * http://www.wlug.org.nz/CategoryDistro We have some that require slightly different configuration based on various distros/OS's where the main page covers the topic and then there are paragraphs on how this differs per OS/Distro eg: http://www.wlug.org.nz/IPv6Setup covers Linux, FreeBSD and two flavours of windows. Another example is http://www.wlug.org.nz/LDAPNotes which has a paragraph for redhat and another one for Debian. Note we don't have much mandrake content because none of the people who regularly write content use Mandrake, or the mandrake content is very similar to the redhat content. Where the information is available it's been added to the wiki eg, http://www.wlug.org.nz/KDENotes If you want information about your distro added to the wiki, take the notes that are there and add whatever extra information is needed for your distribution.
The wiki has lots of useful information, but in saying that it is very generic and does not really cover any specific distro and since each one is different it does get very confusing.
Being generic is a good thing. People need to learn concepts not "mouse clicks". It is better to understand something in a detailed generic way than to understand just the specifics of a particular distro. This is true of all education not just Linux or computers. Once you understand the general concepts you can apply them to any distro. The only time distro specific info should be described is when the lack of that specific information would block the user from applying the generic concept to their system. Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com
participants (10)
-
Bill Rosoman -
Craig Box -
Daniel Lawson -
DrWho? -
Gavin Denby -
Greig McGill -
John R. McPherson -
Oliver Jones -
Perry Lorier -
zcat