I did consider offering here first. But I didn't want to get into a price negotiation via email. I figured Trademe is a good system for that and hence posted in on there at the same time. I would genuinely prefer for a Linux gamer to buy the game but in the end I do want to get the highest price for it no matter who buys it. :)

If that was the case you'd advertised it here first. You are just trying to increase your target audience. SPAM

Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver.jones(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

Now now Aristotle be nice. No need to bite the Windows user's head off. Remember the tenants of appropriate Linux advocacy. Regards On Wed, 2004-04-14 at 16:35, A. Pagaltzis wrote:

* Hal Wigoda <hwigoda(a)mindspring.com> [2004-04-14 06:23]:

...

hwo did you create that signature block at the end of your e-mail?

Before trying something like a sig you should start with using a less braindead mailer than Outlook Express.. your messages are a chore to read. -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

Oh and btw -- could you please quit the top-posting and quote properly? ;-)

Top posting eh. That's a new phrase for me. I guess I've gotten into the habit of doing that these days. Or rather I'm a mix poster. If I want to respond to the whole of a post without quoting specific parts I post on top. If I want to respond to certain parts of a post I mix-in my responses. Or I do both in the same post. Shock-horror. ;) Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

Oh -- and: * Oliver Jones <oliver(a)deeper.co.nz> [2004-04-14 09:42]:

No need to bite the Windows user's head off. Remember the tenants of appropriate Linux advocacy.

I wasn't actually talking about him using Windows at all. There are plenty of sane (*and* free) mail user agents for Windows as well. In the German part of the 'net, OE is usually written "OjE", which, spoken out loud, reads like "oh dear" -- and with good reason. I'd link a site or two that discuss the issues, but unfortunately I don't think any of the folks on this list would benefit from sites written in German.. :-) -- Regards, Aristotle "If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't take life seriously enough."

Before trying something like a sig you should start with using a less braindead mailer than Outlook Express.. your messages are a chore to read.

I'm using Outlook, having problems reading my mail ? :)

Re. Outlook/OE, it's some time since I've used them (so perhaps they've improved) but I've never understood why windows users (and yes, I happily use W2K in addition to Linux) don't use the superior Pegasus email client.

Because Pegasus is third party and requires action on the part of the user to get it to work. Remember the great majority of Windows users out there don't want to delve into the intricacy's of how the system works. They just want it to work. And when it doesn't they know there are plenty of people around who can make it work. Hence the use of Outlook Express - It's pre-installed, integrated into Windows and has plenty of support (often free and over the phone). Actually I should say majority of 'Computer' users. People who want to be able to type their Letters, Email their friends, Surf the web and listen to their MP3's without having to set anything up if they can avoid it. And when it breaks they want to be able to fix it little hassle and minimal cost. Of course there are those of us (myself included) who are more technologically inclined, but use OE (html send 'off') because it's there and is a reasonably tidy client. Jodi P.S. btw this was written in Evolution. I use both ;) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jodi W. Anderson, Mr (BA, A+, MCP) - Computer Systems Consultant Waikato University Library - Computing Operations Group Ph: +64 7 838 4323 email: jodi(a)waikato.ac.nz "Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before."

On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 09:52, A. Pagaltzis wrote:

* Jodi Thomson <jodi(a)waikato.ac.nz> [2004-04-14 23:46]:

...

Actually I should say majority of 'Computer' users. People who want to be able to type their Letters, Email their friends, Surf the web and listen to their MP3's without having to set anything up if they can avoid it.

Sounds like KNOPPIX. :-P

I'm always amazed that Computing Appliances never took off. It seems that the market wants to spend thousands of dollars on computers they use 10% of the functionality of. Would it not make more sense to spend 10% of the money and use 100% of the features of a Computing Appliance? You could develop a device that was the size of an LCD screen that had a wireless keyboard and mouse. It would have 2 USB ports. One to plug in a an optional printer for printing your letters and emails, and the second for plugging in your digitial camera for sending pictures of your children to people. It would be entirely solid state with no HDD. It would run a very customized Linux distro. It could be produced sold for about 200-300 USD. Probably less depending on the size of the LCD. I want Unix pipes for appliances. Ie, one tool that does one thing well and a universal interconnect (Ethernet/xml/zeroconf). I want 'ls -la |grep "^\." | wc -l' but as Computer Appliances... :) Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver.jones(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

The command wasn't supposed to do anything really. I just kinda typed in some random stuff. I didn't exactly test it. It was illustrative, not demonstrative. ;) Regards On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 12:49, A. Pagaltzis wrote:

* Oliver Jones <oliver(a)deeper.co.nz> [2004-04-15 02:20]:

...

I want 'ls -la |grep "^\." | wc -l' but as Computer Appliances... :)

Hm, what's that supposed to do? I could see if it was ``ls -a'' -- then it would count dotfiles. Was that a type or does ``ls -l'' ever produce a dot at the start of the line? -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

...

Re. Outlook/OE, it's some time since I've used them (so perhaps they've improved) but I've never understood why windows users (and yes, I happily use W2K in addition to Linux) don't use the superior Pegasus email client.

It's called, personal preference.

Why change to something else, when I have no issues with my current mail client ?

If it weren't for a couple of bugs, which only really are a problem when people (glares at Perry) deliberately send malformed messages, Outlook Express would almost be "the perfect Windows mail client." Apparently there are IMAP issues, but I've never seen them. All the other Windows mail clients, including Thunderbird (I looked last when it was Mozilla Mail, I guess it's getting better) suffer from "I still look like Windows 3.1 syndrome". OE actually integrates nicely into Windows without needing new widgets or looking either too new or too old. I hope MS rescind on their "no further development" call. Craig

Oliver Jones wrote:

...

/If it weren't for a couple of bugs, which only really are a problem when/

A couple of bugs???? It's fecking swiss cheese. More viruses are spread via OE than any other infection vector.

* Top posting * Not parsing MIME Messages properly * Doesn't support detached PGP/GPG signatures * Doesn't support detached email sigs * Sends mail as if it was "latin-1" when it's actually some random windows encoding * Liberal MIME parser accepts things as attachments that most other mail clients/virus scanners believe aren't. * Believes that lines that begin with "begin " are uuencodes. And thats just the ones that I remember having to deal with when I don't use IE.

A couple of bugs???? It's fecking swiss cheese. More viruses are spread via OE than any other infection vector.

I have been using it for years and years and years.. As long as you keep it up to date, you have very little problems if you are "Aware" enough. - Drew

Normally I would let this slide, had I not just read the CNET report on Windows latest fix release for 14 security holes in doze, which makes 20 patches this month and also noted with interest that the average response time from MS from reported hole discovery to patch release being just over 200 days.

Strip back the FUD; apply the standard "there are security holes in Linux applications fixed all the time, but Gartner Group rarely complains about them, and if they do, it gets written off as anti-MS propaganda" "Windows" too, please.

IMHO, if you really want to be targeted by viruses, and walk around with a target painted on your back, go for it. Otherwise Use a different client.

I've been using Outlook Express for several years now. I've never once passed a virus onto anyone. Coincidence? I think not. If Linux had the market share that Windows had, then there'd be exploits found and abused in Linux. They might be fixed quicker, but anything we say about that hypothetical situation is mere speculation at this point. Yes, some of these viewpoints are exaggerated for this post, but just because some Windows users are a problem doesn't mean they all are.

Oliver Jones wrote:

...

/Strip back the FUD; apply the standard "there are security holes in Linux applications fixed all the time, but Gartner Group rarely complains about them, and if they do, it gets written off as anti-MS propaganda"/

This is entirely true. Linux does have security problems. Just today RedHat released two fixes for bugs in CVS and Cadaver.

I'm not sure if I've seen any "Linux" or related security flaws that have been known about and no patch provided for 6 months [1]. Security flaws happen, it's how they are dealt with that's the issue. Ignoring the lazy/ignorant sysadmin problem for now, a 6 month lead time from notification of a critical security flaw in software to the vendor providing a fix for it is pretty shocking. I don't think this is FUD at all. If patches were ready in a timely fashion, and didn't have complicated dependancy issues, then you could start talking about market share and pointing out that if Linux had a bigger install base it'd be a bigger problem. But don't be too quick to discount as FUD a very valid point. [1] I would link to the right place within www.eeye.com however it seems to kill Mozilla 1.7b without even thinking about it. I've had to re-write this email because of this...

The point I was making was the length of time for fixes, Microsoft was Told, but waited 6 months before patching. Don't get me wrong. I use and need windows too, But OE is the security weakness of every version of windows, Releases are very slow, How long has IE 6.0 been out ? I still recall doing the Supporting Windows Course , Yep the Microsoft one, and getting told to re-install every PC every 6 months, Now under the guise of Better security testing, fixes take forever to be released, This is a bad thing. Other programs Like thunderbird, can be updated regularly, have less threats targeting them, and tend to fix security issues in 2-4 weeks. Since moving OE off the machines I support, my problems with machines have been reduced.

Strip back the FUD; apply the standard "there are security holes in Linux applications fixed all the time, but Gartner Group rarely complains about them, and if they do, it gets written off as anti-MS propaganda

Agreed, but the key here is that they are fixed, and fixed faster, Linux's issues are that for many users there is no simple windows update tool to keep the security issues going, but this discussion is about outlook express, not Linux, and that only runs on windows 98-XP not Linux. If you want to do a correct comparison locate holes that thunderbird, and Outlook express have, and mean time to fix. or OE and Peagsus would also be a Valid comparison

I've been using Outlook Express for several years now. I've never once passed a virus onto anyone.

I bet you have a good firewall, and have an awareness of computer related isssues, My wifes family have none, have trashed 3 machines due to viruses, but the issues vanished when I changed their mail clients, and installed firewalls, and other fixes, every month or two I update the machines, and since then viruses and worms have been a non issue, Even thought they open every attachment they get (don't ask me why), But if you have less than skilled users, do them a favour, move them off OE. Not off windows, just off OE. I also put a Linux box configured as a router and a dial up modem in to filter the mail, and act as a firewall, but to them its the internet connect box. (a customised appliance.) I have to set up their modems anyway, so it was a minor change.

Coincidence? I think not. If Linux had the market share that Windows had, then there'd be exploits found and abused in Linux. They might be fixed quicker, but anything we say about that hypothetical situation is mere speculation at this point.

Again OE doesn't run on Linux. so a mute point. And its not speculation, Redhat had a big issue about a year back, and the fix time was 6 days. Redhat had the update tools, and for Ximian users it was 8 days. kernel 2.4.22 was fixed in 20 days. Thunderbirds releases are about every month, Not the 6 months that Microsoft feels is acceptable. (and for the record, I use slackware which doesn't have the tools... Sadly)

Yes, some of these viewpoints are exaggerated for this post, but just because some Windows users are a problem doesn't mean they all are.

Blaster used an old exploit, Microsoft knew about it, didn't fix it, then blamed the people who reported the bug for the exploits use. The real issue here is that people trust the software when they shouldn't, We all have a responsibility to tell every user that no software does the job, and only good policy (If you don't expect X to send that attachment... dont open it.) will save them. We also Limit what attachment we will let through. If its not in the approved list, or from the right place its blocked and we have to manually check it. It in the internet use policy so if they use the work connection, they know we may read it. (that policy reduced our e-mail traffic by almost 40%). But as a support person, I have to tell my clients OE is a particularly bad bit of software, and there are choices. Of course, If they use Mac OS 10.3 or Linux, then they have all the tools without needing to add anything. If they need windows, they don't need OE. But since this is LUG, I am now officially off topic. and will close my diatribe there

Craig Box wrote:

I've been using Outlook Express for several years now. I've never once passed a virus onto anyone.

Neither have I. But that's just because I've never had anyone send me a virus. Were they to have under some circumstances, I'm sure I would have accidentally passed it on. If I recall correctly, merely having the victim open e-mails - never mind attachments - has been sufficient to exploit some OE security flaws. Jason

Is looks really all that counts to you? :)

s/looks/usability/ if you want. It's a mail client. It doesn't have to do much other than read and reply to mail. There are advanced niceties (GPG signing, etc) but By the way, there's currently no policy to (my knowledge) regarding HTML posting to the list. In general, "top posting" is the correct method to reply to a HTML email (it's defined in the RFC) and while some people don't like it, cat not withstanding, it hasn't really been abused. Would people like me to are look at if I can turn HTML posting off to the list?

Btw: Thunderbird is themeable, as is Mozilla..

Not to make it look "exactly" like a "native Windows application"; this is one of the requirements of having a cross platform app; it can't rely on native widgets and render the same on all platforms. Remember that if the similarities are major, the differences are even worse! Craig

Craig:

...

In general, "top posting" is the correct method to reply to a HTML email (it's defined in the RFC)

While you're there ... what's the rationale?

In a discussion group proper usenet quoting should be used. As this mail list is primarily for discussion of issues to do with Linux it should, IMHO, be treated as a usenet discussion group for the purposes of quotation style. Normal Western reading style is from top to bottom. With top posting one has to scroll to the bottome of the message to find out the context and what the person is referring to, then scroll back to the top of the message to read the response. Top posting violates the natural way in which people read postings, and makes it unclear what the posting actually means. With insertion quoting the reader can read the message from top to bottom in a natural way. By inserting the new text at the right point, the context is made very clear and reduces risk of misappropriating text. By deleting material that is not relevant the reader is not wasting time with irrelevant material. I personally appreciate very much good quoting. Top-posting is a complete pain in the arse. There is very little rationale for top-posting. If there is a reason for top-posting (i.e. the whole email message should be retained) then the email message should be included as an rfc822 attachment. That way, the recipient can handle the original post with his newsreader, look at it, reply to it and further forward it. Cheers Michael

After reading the comments posted about the install fest here is my 2cents worth. It would be a fair comment that most people who would attend the install fest would be windows users who may be interested in making the move to Linux, for one reason or another. So rather than offering a "cold turkey" solution why not focus on a "dual boot" solution so they can chop and change as needed until they become more confidant in Linux. This will mean a bit more effort on the part of the volunteers with partition resizing etc.. but in saying that sing out and they will come. Personally, I would say focus on the following linux apps: * A working Media Player that will do DivX, XVid, DVD, MPEG1 & 2, mp3 etc.. and TV output. * A GUI based CD writer that can produce data, audio & video CDs. * EMAIL, WWW & FTP etc. also some form of ActiveX emulation for on-line banking. * File and printer sharing. * Internet connection sharing. * Firewall. * Archive management i.e. ZIP & RAR etc.. * An automatic update solution. * Office software. There will no doubt be more software that some would need to play games with, but I have not gone down that path, but finding someone who could help with this would be of good value. By trying, best as possible, to ensure that all the above mentioned software can "interchange" with windows it would be good value for the end user. All flames, abuse & bashing here:

At 13:45 15/04/2004, you wrote:

DrWho? wrote:

...

After reading the comments posted about the install fest here is my 2cents worth.

It would be a fair comment that most people who would attend the install fest would be windows users who may be interested in making the move to Linux, for one reason or another.

So rather than offering a "cold turkey" solution why not focus on a "dual boot" solution so they can chop and change as needed until they become more confidant in Linux.

This will mean a bit more effort on the part of the volunteers with partition resizing etc.. but in saying that sing out and they will come. Resizing is a very risky option; the very LAST thing we want is people who say "I tried to install Linux once, and lost all my data because if it.". Especially if we were helping them at the time.

I would think, providing something like Partition Magic is available ( which I have and no doubt others ) to do the job it could be offered as an option for those who are not competent with doing it themselves or installing new hardware. I have resized MANY NTFS and FAT partitions with PQMAGIC and never had a problem, not to say there have not or will not be any problems, but there is also the option of ghosting their HDD before the resize. I was thinking of making it as easy as possible for the person to give Linux a go...

...

Personally, I would say focus on the following linux apps: * A working Media Player that will do DivX, XVid, DVD, MPEG1 & 2, mp3 etc.. and TV output. * A GUI based CD writer that can produce data, audio & video CDs. * EMAIL, WWW & FTP etc. also some form of ActiveX emulation for on-line banking. * File and printer sharing. * Internet connection sharing. * Firewall. * Archive management i.e. ZIP & RAR etc.. * An automatic update solution. * Office software.

Yes, it would be good idea if we can fit xmms-mp3 and xine + codecs in at the end of the install. The rest is all part of the FC1 standard install. (apart from the GUI cd burner; I still haven't found a decent one yet :( )

Pity, as nero is a killer windows app for burning..

_______________________________________________ wlug mailing list | wlug(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Unsubscribe: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/wlug

I would think, providing something like Partition Magic is available ( which I have and no doubt others ) to do the job it could be offered as an option for those who are not competent with doing it themselves or installing new hardware.

Partition Magic is commercial software. From a quick look over the website, I can't see a trial version handy, nor would I expect a trial version to be fully featured. I might be wrong here, of course, as I've only spent a few minutes looking into this. [1] I know PM is a great product, I've used it in the past. However, we would almost certainly be violating licensing on the product if we were to install it on everyones computer to resize their partitions prior to installing Linux. Same goes for the use of Ghost to back up their harddisk. [2] We would be doing very badly indeed if we were tapped on the shoulder by the BSA for pirating commercial software to aid us is installing Linux on people's computers. Oh, the irony. If people want to get Partition Magic, then they can buy it themselves. Many PC's come with an OEM of Ghost, which they can use themselves if they like. End of the day, it's their responsibility, not ours. And a small harddisk is probably the cheapest option here.

I was thinking of making it as easy as possible for the person to give Linux a go...

Granted, however we don't want to break any laws in the process. That could end up making it very hard for the person, and for the LUG in general. [1] & [2]. There are OSS equivalents of these two products, however I'm not sure how featurefull they are (ie, if they cover resizing NTFS5 partitions, etc).

You do not need to install it as it will run from a boot disk, or in my case a boot CD.

I'm still very wary of licensing issues with regard to this. I know that Ghost, for example, clearly states that you need once license of Ghost per workstation being imaged. That means you aren't allowed to just use it from a boot CD. I've just found a copy of the license for Partition Magic 8.0, and it clearly states that you are only allowed to use it on a number of machines that you have licensed it for. If you personally have a legal, unlimited workstation license for Partition Magic and wish to offer that as a resource for use, then that might be an option. Otherwise, the WLUG cannot have anything to do with it at any official WLUG events. What you do on your own computer is up to you, and I'm not in any way trying to tell you what do in your own time. At a WLUG event, however, we have to obey the rules. As a side note here, one of the LUG's charter points is for the promtion of Open Source software and Operating Systems. This is extended in another point to include "other Free Operating Systems", and the definitions of Free Software and Open Source Software are mentioned at the bottom of the Charter. I'm sure we all know the difference between "Free" software and software which, for whatever reason, you don't pay for, but in case some reader's aren't aware of this they are at the URLs linked below. http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

I would think, providing something like Partition Magic is available ( which I have and no doubt others ) to do the job it could be offered as an option for those who are not competent with doing it themselves or installing new hardware.

Oh? Does the license allow that? Even so, it's still far more risk/hassle than we need I believe.

I have resized MANY NTFS and FAT partitions with PQMAGIC and never had a problem, not to say there have not or will not be any problems, but there is also the option of ghosting their HDD before the resize.

To what? Are you providing the disk space? Remember this is an afternoon workshop. -- Greig McGill

Quoting DrWho? <x_files_(a)ihug.co.nz>: <list of software to aim at for the installfest> I'm not attacking DrWho here, he was merely the guy who quoted something - I'm just going to bring up this point. WLUG: "Look you can do all these cool things on linux, wowz0r!" Newbie: "Cool" WLUG: "Yeah, check these awesome programs out, they're exactly the same as your windows one" Newbie: "Hold up, I already had windows, and this is the same, why did I just waste 6 hours?" WLUG: <spouts inspirational stuff about Free As In Beer and Saving all the native cows of the south american rainforest and freeing the common people from the evil opresssor> Newbie "Hrmm... dirty hippies... give me back my windows, I'm comfortable with it and I can play battlefield 1942." Now I don't know nearly as much about all the software you can and can't get for various linux distros, but IMHO what you need is something which they can do in linux which they *can't* do (easily, if at all) in windows. If you get this one thing which is useful, then people will be interested and will accept Evolution/Mozilla/XMMS/etc as par for the course. Nobody's interested in doing a lot of work to accomplish what they already have, and even if they may be interested, a lot of students etc won't come to this installfest simply because they won't see (note the 'see') any gain in it. So, what can you do on linux better than you can do on windows which is actually visible to joe end user? (remember, increased security and all that stuff does not apply here). It doesn't have to be big or fancy, it just has to be something. (DISCLAIMER, As I've said I can't suggest this thing, but I'm hoping that some of you gurus will know) ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

Nobody's interested in doing a lot of work to accomplish what they already have, and even if they may be interested, a lot of students etc won't come to this installfest simply because they won't see (note the 'see') any gain in it.

You've mad a good point, but you're over generalising here. Some people *are* interested in doing exactly this, whether its for fun, fiscal or political reasons.

So, what can you do on linux better than you can do on windows which is actually visible to joe end user? (remember, increased security and all that stuff does not apply here). It doesn't have to be big or fancy, it just has to be something. (DISCLAIMER, As I've said I can't suggest this thing, but I'm hoping that some of you gurus will know)

For 'Joe End User', being a typical end user, the answer is probably 'nothing'. There's no killer app that clinches the deal. There's cool things you can do by-the-by, like setting XEarth as your background, or gdesklets under Gnome 2.6, and so on. That said, that's really only Active Desktop anyway, and we've all hated that in Windows since it first arrived. Your points apply very well in the case where we're pushing Linux on to others. In this case - and in most cases the LUG has to deal with - people already want to use Linux, or are curious enough to give it a try. They've opened the door, we don't need to do that. Daniel

There are a million things I feel are "better" - transparency, ease of configuration (yes, really - I find it far more logical to look in /etc/appname

Good point. Windows kind of has the "Tools\Options" menu item for this, but it's all over the place. Having said that, I've installed linux things that decide to put their configuration in /usr/share/lib or something stupid like that, (or other things such as the apache config file is called 'httpd.conf' instead of the obvious 'apache.conf') so the blade cuts both ways...

I don't feel I should push these values on others. I'd like them to be AWARE of the option though.

Thats definitely a fine line. Street preaching anyone? :-) But yeah, it's all a big confusing mess - On the one hand you have the 'treat linux like a product that you're trying to sell' mentality, in which case you need things like killer apps, and lots of zealotry. On the other hand you have the 'free for anyone who wants it but if you don't want it we don't care and won't try convince you' in which case you don't care about killer apps, but then you have to bear in mind that if you do ever decide to push it (I percieve the installfest as a 'push' from WLUG) then you have to accept the fact that a large amount of otherwise potential interested parties are going to be apathetic... At any rate, the primary focus of it seems to be to install Fedora core, and get a windows clone. As I've mentioned, people won't care much about windows clones when they have a perfectly good copy of windows bundled with their PC. The primary reason I run linux anywhere is because of the 'server in a cupboard at home' thing - A lot of wlug users also have these. My linux server runs debian and has no X or any other graphics/multimedia stuff, and that's fine - the killer app for it has to be SSH - that and a webserver. (want to send files to people on the internet but your MSN file sending doesn't work through your router? Or run a casual photo gallery from home?) I happily run windows on my desktop/games PC, but couldn't live without the linux server. Perhaps an idea would be to introduce users to this idea, and show them how to set up a basic server for things like mp3 sharing and gallery, etc? This way you can also stress the fact that linux is much more flexible than windows and will run on any old pentium 100 you can pick up, and the fact that it's more secure (as soon as you mention the word 'server' people care about security, but otherwise they don't seem to). Could show them the cool things about such servers - SSHing into it to resume a screened IRC session for example, or perhaps install CPanel or something like that... As the primary audience will be university students, probably from the compsci department who will end up flatting - you may find there is more interest for something like this than you would have thought of. Also if you can get one person to make a linux server to run at their house, that instantly exposes their entire flat to linux in some form, even if it's just using gallery or something simple like that. Once they've seen it running (gallery is pretty cool) they may be interested to go further. Anyway, Just my 2c. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

...

something stupid like that, (or other things such as the apache config file is called 'httpd.conf' instead of the obvious 'apache.conf') so the blade cuts both ways...

Yes, but at least it's in /etc/apache (usually! ;).

Err. Maybe on Debian. On RedHat/Fedora it is /etc/httpd and the name for the conf file matches the exe. httpd.conf for httpd. Also, Apache is an organisation name not a program. The HTTP daemon in question is officially part of Apache HTTPD project or just httpd. Just as the Java Servlet container is Apache Jakarta Tomcat Project or just Tomcat and the Java build tool is the Apache Ant Project or just Ant.

Note: I can hear Dan cringing - Please don't take this as me advising everyone that the LUG sucks. It's just not the right choice for me anymore.

I tend to agree (in a way) with Greig here. But then I've never been a member of the WLUG. ;) And I don't think the WLUG is a bad idea generally. For people who *want* to learn about Linux it is a great forum. The key difference is the willingness to learn. I think trying to up-skill people who don't care and don't want to learn is pointless. And computers are too complex and general purpose to begin with, and Linux distros doubly so. This is fine for most of the members of this list and the WLUG. But most people don't need a computer workstation. They need toasters. They need microwave ovens. They do not need a needlessly over complex pile of shit that is a PC. This is why the PlayStation 2 is a 80 million unit success story and PC gaming is struggling to break out of the FPS/RTS genre hell it is currently in. With the PlayStation 2 you plug it in, turn it on, put the disc in and it works. With a PC you have to have: - a working stable OS - a $3,000 machine with enough grunt to run the game in question, - the correct video drivers & version of DirectX - enough HDD space to installthe 4GB of game data - patch the game to the latest version - enough knowledge to find resources online if your game crashes Fuck that. Give me a console any day. And the same applies to pretty much every other piece of computer software. Regards -- Oliver Jones » Director » oliver(a)deeperdesign.com » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com

* Orion Edwards <orion(a)coke.net.nz> [2004-04-15 04:25]:

So, what can you do on linux better than you can do on windows which is actually visible to joe end user?

Do *anything* you want without paying a penny, and have the peace of mind that none of your software is pirated, and in fact, there are people out there who get a *thrill* out of that you're using their software. Not having to warez stuff just to do trivial crap is a feeling I never want to miss anymore. Doubtless, that's not going to phase everyone -- particularly not the k1ddi3z. But it's certainly going to appeal to those more toward the middle end of the age spectrum, or beyond. -- Regards, Aristotle "If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't take life seriously enough."

* Drew Broadley <drew(a)corrupt.co.nz> [2004-04-14 22:20]:

I'm using Outlook, having problems reading my mail ? :)

Outlook and Outlook Express are very different apps, despite the similar names. Although Outlook can easily be annoying as well, it's actually possible to configure it pretty sanely. Of course, there's still choices like Pegasus Mail [1], MozillaMail, and Thunderbird [2], which, frankly, I'd far prefer.. if only because of the security risks of Outlook. A quick Google search also turned up Mahogany [3], a cross-platform GUI client written in Python. I don't how well Sylpheed's Win32 port [4] works, it might also be worth a try. Personally, I'd happily go through the pains of settings up mutt on Win32 [5].. :-) [2] http://www.pmail.com/ [2] http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/ [3] http://mahogany.sourceforge.net/ [4] http://sylpheed-claws.sourceforge.net/win32/ [5] http://www.geocities.com/win32mutt/win32.html -- Regards, Aristotle "If you can't laugh at yourself, you don't take life seriously enough."

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 19:39, Oliver Jones wrote:

I created an HTML file and imported it into Evolution's signature editor. However I shouldn't really be posting to this list (or any list) in HTML. I keep forgetting to turn HTML off when I post.

Please try to remember - it is MailingList 101. You used to be in my killfile before I moved to mutt and Kmail. :)