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Re: [wlug] Re Wiki Gentoo notes
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 23 Oct '04

23 Oct '04

----- Original Message Follows ----- > One of the (many) great things about gentoo is that it > doesn't force you into a pre-defined install pattern. > > > What you should do, is boot from the install disk like > your starting from scratch - then just mount your disks > (mount /dev/hda3 /mnt/gentoo > mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/boot > swapon /dev/hda2 etc.) > then enter the chroot enviroment > (chroot /mnt/gentoo > env-update > source /etc/profile etc.) > > then you can just correct what is wrong - ie by running > genkernel I did the boot from install disk and made the changes I thought needed, everything went pretty well until I: "make dep && make bzImage modules modules_install" <enter> There was a fair bit of activety then a report "make: no rule to make target bzImages". Stop regards John

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Fwd: Re: [wlug] Re Wiki Gentoo notes
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 23 Oct '04

23 Oct '04

----- Message Forwarded on Fri 22/10/2004 ----- From: "" <jaytee(a)clear.net.nz> To: Felix <ferina(a)xtra.co.nz> Subject: Re: [wlug] Re Wiki Gentoo notes Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:37:50 +1300 ----- Original Message Follows ----- > ^G = Get Help > ^O = Write File > ^X = Exit, > If modified it will ask "Save modified buffer ..." > Y(es)/N(o)/^C(ancel) Felix. I did not get these options,, it is a very minimal bash script in Grub edit. I can make changes but not keep them for next boot time.. All I made a major error in compiling the kernel so am going to reinstall from scratch for two reasons. One: I am not sure if the error is recoverable Two: I am becoming a bit less scared of the command environment. There is one thing that is are a bit of a problem, Capital o and zero are a bit of a guess, is there a rule whe it should be a 0 (zero) and when it should be a O (o) Regards John...

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Passwords and SSH
by Perry Lorier 22 Oct '04

22 Oct '04

I have had several people talk to me over the last few days about having their machine compromised. The infection vector appears to be weak ssh passwords. The compromise appears to based on people scanning for open ssh ports then brute forcing passwords before installing a Trojan that connects to IRC and accept commands from a channel (such as .ddos <ip>). Please, make sure you're using a secure password. If passwd warns you that a password is insecure, CHANGE IT. http://www.wlug.org.nz/ChoosingPasswords provides a couple of methods on how to choose a good password. Make sure everything is up to date on your system: for debian: apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade -u for fedora core click on the blinking red (!) in the corner to get it to do the updates. If you don't use ssh (or don't know what it is) DISABLE IT, or just uninstall it. If you do use ssh, consider using tcpwrappers to lock it to something like "*.nz". See http://www.wlug.org.nz/AdvancedSecurityNotes. To check if you've been compromised, try "locate emech". If it shows up any files (particularly in /tmp or /var/tmp) then you have been compromised. Bugger. If you have, and need help, email me off list and we'll talk about what you can do.

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WLUG Meeting is on monday
by Meeting Reminder bot 21 Oct '04

21 Oct '04

The WLUG meeting is on monday ---------------------------------------------------------------------- !!Live fixup demonstration Monday 25 October (Labour Day) - taking advantage of the holiday, we will start at 4pm, look over a few peoples problems, and run a presentation at 5pm with an introduction on how to find answers to Linux questions online (especially Google and the Wiki), 10 min Q&A and then go over fixing some problems live on a big screen. This one is a great opportunity for new and inexperienced users! Please bring machines. 4pm, 25 October%%% University of Waikato%%% Room: LitB.G.02 Park in Gate 1, Knighton Rd * http://www.waikato.ac.nz/perl-bin/map/tt-map.pl?term=litb * http://www.waikato.ac.nz/contacts/map.pdf

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Re: [wlug] Re Wiki Gentoo notes
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 21 Oct '04

21 Oct '04

(EDIT) ..have NOT figured out a way to save.. blush: > Regards John.....

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Re: [wlug] Re Wiki Gentoo notes
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 21 Oct '04

21 Oct '04

Hi All, I have just installed Gentoo On my desktop. I did however, make a few errors on the way to boot time (I can see the surprised looks :-) ) When I created (in Nano)/boot/grub/grub.conf I made an entry of: kernel /kernel-2.4226-gentoo-r6. the correct entry is: kernel /kernel-2.4.26-gentoo-r6. I am able to correct this in grub but I have figured out a way to save the change. ^X does not do it and I am loathe to hit keys at random as I have already had some undesirable results due to this. There are more errors but I thought I would try doing one thing at a time for a change. I think some of my newbiness might have worn off in the last week or so hee hee. Regards John.....

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October committee meeting minutes available
by Craig Box 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

Hi everyone, WLUG committee met last night - as usual, our minutes are available on the Wiki, this time at http://www.wlug.org.nz/CommitteeMeetingTopics.2004-10-20. Please remember the upcoming WLUG meeting on Monday is at 4pm and that there will be a presentation at 5pm. Bring things that need fixing! Regards, Craig

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RE: [wlug] MacOS X....
by Matthew Browne (DSL HN) 20 Oct '04

20 Oct '04

> From: Oliver Jones [mailto:oliver(a)deeper.co.nz] > > http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/ooo-osx_downloads.html > <http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/ooo-osx_downloads.html> > > > Hmm. Same place I was looking before. Lots of the mirrors > report 404 errors. I managed to get a copy from one of the > mirrors in the end though. After installing X11 and OOo I > fired it up and it's about as good as you could expect for a > Unix app on a Mac. Ie, not very good. It would do for a > geek like me. I could put up with it being completely > different to everything else. But on reflection I think I > need a more "MacOS" like app for my mother. So I downloaded > the MS Office:Mac 30 day trial. I will give that a going > over and see if it is worth the $700+ it costs.... I don't know much about Mac Office software, I never need anything like that, but from what I hear, many Mac users don't like either of MS Office or Open Office. If word processing is all your mother needs, it might be worth checking out some of these instead... Nisus Writer http://www.nisus.com/Express/ Abiword http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/abiword/ NeoOffice/J (Open Office with Java UI) http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/en/index.php If you're after any other software, it might be worth having a look through the categories here: http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/ And http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/

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ICS control
by Jared Wigmore 19 Oct '04

19 Oct '04

I'm using Internet Connection Sharing to access the (family) Windows computer's Internet connection from my Linux box. How could it be controlled (eg connect/disconnect) from Linux? ===== -- JaredWigmore -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCM/CS/S d? s+++:-- a? C++++ UL++ P--- L++ E>+++ W++ N>+ o? K- w--- O? M-- V-- PS-- Y-- PGP- t+++ 5? X R* tv b++ DI D G e- h! !r z- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ http://www.wlug.org.nz/JaredWigmore http://AnswersInGenisis.org/ http://www.againsttcpa.com/ ---------------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com

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WLUG Meeting is one week away
by Meeting Reminder bot 18 Oct '04

18 Oct '04

The Waikato Linux Users Group have a meeting in one week today. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- !!Live fixup demonstration Monday 25 October (Labour Day) - taking advantage of the holiday, we will start at 4pm, look over a few peoples problems, and run a presentation at 5pm with an introduction on how to find answers to Linux questions online (especially Google and the Wiki), 10 min Q&A and then go over fixing some problems live on a big screen. This one is a great opportunity for new and inexperienced users! Please bring machines. 4pm, 25 October%%% University of Waikato%%% Room: LitB.G.02 Park in Gate 1, Knighton Rd * http://www.waikato.ac.nz/perl-bin/map/tt-map.pl?term=litb * http://www.waikato.ac.nz/contacts/map.pdf

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Re Wiki Gentoo notes
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 18 Oct '04

18 Oct '04

Hi All I thought I saw some one demonstrate a really easy way of getting files downloaded and installed in the Gentoo distro. As root # up <name_of_package> Computer then searches for and reports back: "I would install Files <name> to <name> If the user was satisfied with the report then the "p" is deleted <enter> and the update goes ahead. I did not put this in the wiki In case I was totally wrong, it did happen once :-) Regards John

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Removing FC2
by Gun Caundle 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

I have FC2 on a box that I want to put Windows on. How do I uninstall FC2? Any help would be appreciated.

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SuSE boot challenge
by Gun Caundle 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

I have just installled SuSE Standard Server 8 on a AMD 1200 with 384 RAM. The installation told me it was successful. I previously had FC2 on this PC. I booted normally and go a black screen immediately after: "Starting httpd PERL SSL" Using 'Ctl-Alt-F1' I logged in and in text mode was able to shut down OK. I tried another video card and Yast detected it along with the onboard card (S3 Pro Savage DDR-K) I used originally. I checked out the SuSE Hardware database and the onboard card is fully supported. I removed the temporary card, plugged into the onboard card and this time SuSE booted into KDE! For about a week I booted into KDE and played around with the network settings but then one morning it went back to the black screen immediately after: "Starting httpd PERL SSL". Every time I boot, this is as far as it will go. Any help would be appreciated

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StartCom Linux
by Gavin Denby 13 Oct '04

13 Oct '04

Based on my search for desktop targeted linuxes, and the WLUG's commitment to Redhat/Fedora I wondered if anyone has any experience with StartCom Linux It looks promising but seems based on RHEL rather than fedora, but since it used up2date it may need only to have the source lists changed to get to fedora core upgrades, but without the long task of reinstalling all the "extra's" that are missing in fedora core. I wonder if this could be a distro we could use for new users that everyone could also support as it seems to cover most bases. I will download and try it, but it will take me the best part of a week to get all the cd's down and burnt. so If anyone has any experiences to share, I would appreciate them. the basic specs for the new multimedia version is : Based on the stability, reliability and security of it's Enterprise brother for it's system functionality, ML-3.0.3 offers the demanding home user a operating system he can rely on and trust: * Most stable Linux 2.4 kernel * Complete Desktop environment * Administrative Management Tools * Complete Office Suite * Peer-To-Peer Tools * Secure Multi User Environment * Enhanced Device Capabilities * SMB (Windows) File sharing * Mozilla Web Browser * Firefox Web Browser * Wine - Windows API implementation (Runs Windows and DOS programs) * Xine MultiMedia Center * DVD / CD Burning Tools * Various P2P Tools (aMule, Fasttrack, gNutella (Kazaa)) * OpenOffice Suite * Various Sound Players for MP3, VOG etc. * Desklets Enhancements * Various Chat, Speech and Video Conferencing * Various Graphic Manipulation Tools * Games -- "Engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." Dr A R Dykes.

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python can't find distutils
by Glenn Ramsey 13 Oct '04

13 Oct '04

Hi, I'm having some trouble trying to install a python app, driconf, on a mandrake 10 system: # python setup.py install 'import site' failed; use -v for traceback Traceback (most recent call last): File "setup.py", line 1, in ? from distutils.core import setup ImportError: No module named distutils.core Python and distutils appear to be installed: # rpm -q python python-2.3.3-2mdk # ls /usr/lib/python2.3/distutils/ archive_util.py debug.pyo fancy_getopt.pyo spawn.pyc ... I have looked on Google but found that other instances of this problem happen on Debian systems when the python-dev package, which contains distutils, isn't installed. On Mandrake however I think the distutils is part of the main python package. I haven't changed any of the relevant configuration so it should be whatever the package set it up as. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to make it work? Thanks g -- Glenn Ramsey <glenn(a)componic.co.nz> 07 8627077 http://www.componic.co.nz

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Fwd: Re: [wlug] NewbieNetworkNiggles
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 10 Oct '04

10 Oct '04

----- Message Forwarded on Mon 11/10/2004 ----- From: "" <jaytee(a)clear.net.nz> To: Daniel Lawson <daniel(a)meta.net.nz> Subject: Re: [wlug] NewbieNetworkNiggles Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:46:19 +1300 Hi For some reason it is not possible to boot from the C/D it says "loading the Kernel" then locks solid at 30% loaded claiming there has been a boot error or a I/O error. I am able to use the C/D to start in a failsafe mode and can log on as root but it is text only that is login.... password..... Then a black screen with white txt Maybe it would be worth while trying. Are you able to give me some instructions to try please? Regards John > > DCOP is part of the KDE infrastructure if I recall > correctly. Can you log in to a console as root? You > could delete and re-add your user, which would save a > reinstall. > > > If you boot off the install CD again, you can just install > over the top of your existing linux install (As long as > you are installing the same version you installed > beforehand). > > Daniel >

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Re: [wlug] NewbieNetworkNiggles
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 10 Oct '04

10 Oct '04

Hi Again. I think I am going to miss out on my break and the chocolate fish, I just totally broke itchy :-( Must be pretty serious as I cannot start KDE. It appears that some durned fool has been messing around with my network settings destroying my home directory and a thing called Dcon (Dcop?) in the process. Does any one have a rm commannd that will remove linux entirely and leave windows intact? I wish to reinstall the programme and start the exercise again with virgin settings. Regards John..

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Re: [wlug] NewbieNetworkNiggles
by jaytee＠clear.net.nz 09 Oct '04

09 Oct '04

Maybe I need to be a little clearer on my first objective which is to network two seperate machines. Network to me means that if I am at machine #1 I will be able to "see" and use a file eg jpeg, txt etc from machine #2 and vice versa Having read an article in NZ PC which showed it to be a simple task with minimal settings to alter I thought I would attempt it. This is what I know The cable is a crossover cable and a light shines at each computer at the point of entry, this inicates to me that there is at least a hard connection between the machines. After swithing off the firewalls I used a gui called network services/hostnames to configure the address's The host? names are #1 itchy ip address 192.168.0.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 #2 scratchy ip 192.168.0.2 netmask 255.255.255.0 Then I used a gui called network devices/network card to turn off dchp and recheck the host configurations. The machines now use there respective names so john(a)itchy is my user name for one and john(a)scratchy for the other. Root comes back as itchy:/home/john ping is giving ping scratchy ping: unknown host scratchy ping 192.168.0.2 PING 192.168.0.2 (192.168.02) 56(84)bytes of data. >From 192.168.0.1: icm_seq=2 Destination host unreachable Change machines. ping itchy unknown host itchy ping 192.168.0.1 connect: network is unreachable The reason I was twittering on about work group is that after all the changes, I went back to the desk top and tried to open my "network" from one of the icons. It returned the "cannot find a workgroup" and I did not find a "put_the_workgroup_here" any where I looked Hope this is a little easier to follow. Do you think that I should kill that Wiki entry as it does look pretty awful in the daylight. <ping>Bruce I am in Wanganui but will be back before the next wlug meet. Regards John

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RE: [wlug] WLUG Members - Input Required
by David Nicholls 09 Oct '04

09 Oct '04

1. funding/rig etc... Well, for a rig or something of this nature how about getting some sponsorship for it? Dse might be a good place to start. Also if you are looking at other ideas, how about trying for funding for CDs with the LDP/tutorials/talks the lug has given, funding for a linux/wlug "road show" to businesses, and other groups mentioned in the charter? 2. newbie stuff... Definitely a must. Mayberetool the lecture series that gets put on up here up at the uni. Three things I think are really important are: - installation (still... even if it is getting easier), especially as some people set up home networks and want to connect - configuration - troubleshooting Oh and maybe add a fourth... - help resources. how and where to get them Oh hey what about having the equivalent of "support group meetings"? I think its DunLUG who meet in a café or something like that... We could organise similar nights for newbie groups to meet with more experienced users maybe and let some of that knowledge rub off maybe or something similar? I don't know. Perhaps that sounds silly. Cheers... david -----Original Message----- From: Greig McGill [mailto:greig(a)hamiltron.net] Sent: Wednesday, 22 September 2004 10:32 pm Subject: [wlug] WLUG Members - Input Required 1. WLUG Funding Last year, the committee attempted to raise funds for the purchase of a mobile test rig/demo lab consisting of a server, a workstation, and several peripherals for use in presentations, training, and perhaps community education. We were declined on all three attempts, but will be trying again this year. What we need to know is: Is this a good goal for funding? Do you have a better idea? Is there a service you would like to see the WLUG provide that is currently unrealistic due to funding restrictions? Keep in mind that funding must be applied for with a specific project in mind, as funding cannot be used to meet ongoing running costs, or allow for events that may not happen. 2. New and Inexperienced Users As mentioned at the AGM, the WLUG has been accused of being unsupportive of new or inexperienced users. It was explained that the *active* members of the WLUG, ie. the ones who do all the work, are experienced users, and are thus unlikely to arrange meetings on beginner topics, or arrange installfests, which they have little desire to attend. We don't wish to alienate the new or inexperienced users however, but we need some of them to step up, and volunteer to present some beginner topics, arrange workshops, and perhaps start a "beginner stream". You will have the full backing, and support of the "old hands" - just tell us what you need. I repeat TELL US WHAT YOU NEED! Nothing is more demoralising than being complained at for not providing something which no one has ever told us they wanted. We do have something scheduled for the new people. October's meeting will be dedicated to using the WLUG resources - the Wiki, mailing list, effective use of Google, etc. It will also feature a live "fixup workshop". This will consist of people bringing their "broken" setups, and we will pick a few, and solve them, live, on the projector. This will not only get the problem fixed, but will show the troubleshooting process, and hopefully demystify the black-magic aspect of what the 'gurus' of the group do. Details will follow. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Regards, Greig McGill ElPresidente :)

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KMail: Access from Windows
by Felix 06 Oct '04

06 Oct '04

I am using KMail as my mail client, however, I have to use Windows for one program and have access to the e-mail messages at the same time. I haven't been able to find a program who can do this. Do you know of one? Would it work if I'd use Thunderbird? Of course then there is the problem that the KMail files are on a Reiser partition, but that could probably be solved by moving the files and using a simlink. Thanks Felix

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RE: [wlug] MacOS X....
by Matthew Browne (DSL HN) 06 Oct '04

06 Oct '04

> From: Oliver Jones [mailto:oliver(a)deeper.co.nz] > > Not overly impressed with Safari though (aka KHTML + Apple > UI). Apple should have used Gecko for their HTML component. > Firefox and Safari share many UI similarities. I think I'd rather they had used Gecko too, but Firefox wasn't anywhere near what it is like to day back when they started working on Safari. I think feature similarity is because both camps have been regularly taking ideas from each other.

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GNOME 2.8
by Daniel Lawson 05 Oct '04

05 Oct '04

I'm sure a lot of you have already used GNOME 2.8. Many of the Ubuntu reviewers and commenters will be in part commenting on GNOME 2.8, rather than anything specifically Ubuntu. I've just upgraded my Gentoo workstation at home to use GNOME 2.8, and I thought I'd share the experience, and make some comments on it. First of all, I've been running GNOME 2.6 since it came out, but I admit I didn't delve too deeply into some aspects of it. So if I mention something here that was in GNOME 2.6, please forgive me! I'm currently sitting at a Windows XP laptop, using my workstation via VNC. This was one of the features that prompted me to upgrade to 2.8 before the Gentoo GNOME team declared it stable. GNOME 2.8 has an integrated VNC client - accessable via the menu at Application -> Desktop Preferences -> Remote Desktop. The quality of a VNC session depends entirely upon the implementation of the viewer, and I found TightVNC to be lacking. RealVNC seems much better. Neither seem particular better than running an XServer on my laptop and using XDMCP, however that doesn't let me connect to an existing session. Despite being a little bit slow, and some key events not registering properly, this is pretty good. First score to GNOME 2.8. Also, my laptop has a lower screen resolution than my desktop. Scrolling round through the VNC window was tedious, so I used the screen resizer tool (Gnome 2.4 bought this in, I think) which will actually resize your desktop properly, instead of changing the viewport size. Amazing! Wonderful! About time! I'm writing this email in Evolution 2.0.1. I think, at this point, that I like it more than I liked Evolution previously. Its layout is cleaner; it just feels nicer. It still behaves really badly if you have large IMAP mailspools on servers at the other end of a bad link, but that's the way Evolution handles IMAP (thunderbird / mozilla are a lot less network-intensive than evolution). One of the first things everyone mentions about GNOME 2.8 is the trashcan integrated into your panel. I assume because I upgraded from GNOME 2.6, leaving my config files intact, this didn't get added for me. However, I can't seem to work out how to add this trashcan applet to my panel. Perhaps I don't have it installed, maybe the Gentoo GNOME team haven't packaged that part of it yet (it was masked for a reason after all!). Not really a point against GNOME per se. Nautilus has improved since I last bothered to look at it. Local filesystem browsing is nice, and the 'Computer' menu gives you options to mount devices flagged with 'user' in /etc/fstab - typically any cdrom drives, or in my case, my USB2 harddisk enclosure. Network filesystem browsing is nice too. I get the feeling this is all GNOME 2.6 stuff here however :) Under the 'System Tools' menu there are some good Control Panel-type applications. The 'Users and Groups' tool lets you mangle your user databases quite nicely. It only seems to understand local files (/etc/passwd, /etc/groups etc), I couldn't make it speak to my LDAP server at all. Also, I think it provides a good balance between being "User Friendly" and actually allowing experienced users to do what they want. There is a similar tool for controlling which services are run at boot, and starting/stopping services. The other tool I looked at quickly was a network configuration tool, which had options for setting up wired, wireless, dialup, parallel cable and IR network connections. You can control network profiles from here as well (so when you boot your laptop off the LAN, you can tell it to not bother DHCPing for your wired interface). All of these tools are run through a sudo-like tool, so prompt for your root password, as expected. Personally, I probably won't use them - they are for things performed very infrequently, and I'm happy enough doing them on the command line. However, I think it's a great step towards "general acceptance". I think I'd feel a lot happier now about putting my folks in front of a GNOME desktop. As far as the actual upgrade experience went (gentoo specific), I am using the "unstable" branch of Gentoo 2004.2 (~x86), and I had to unmask a whole heap of packages by adding lines to /etc/portage/package.unmask. (non-gentoo-specific) I had read in several forums that people were having profile issues when upgrading, and many recommended deleting all of the various GNOME configuration directories. I didn't do this - perhaps if I had, I'd have my trashcan on my panel!. It seemed painless enough however. Evolution bitched a bit about upgrading its profile, although I'm not sure why it was upgrading a profile that didn't exist. Daniel

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RE: [wlug] MacOS X....
by Matthew Browne (DSL HN) 05 Oct '04

05 Oct '04

> From: Oliver Jones [mailto:oliver(a)deeper.co.nz] > > Yes there is that. Safari is integrated into the whole OS > (much like IE). I ponder how well FireFox could "plug in" to > MacOS. One thing I noticed is that Safari doesn't block popups. I think the version of Safari with 10.3 and later does block popups although I admit, I don't tend to use it, I'm more of a Mozilla person myself. As to Safari being "integrated into the whole OS", I don't think that's really true. KHTML is part of the OS and is used by various things such as the help viewer, but Safari is just another app which utilises KHTML. If you set another browser to be the default and delete the Safari application everything should run fine. > From: Gavin Denby [mailto:redhat(a)ihug.co.nz] > > I download from the apple OSX site the apple X11 package It also comes on the install CD/DVD since 10.3 as an optional install.

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Library books
by Craig Box 04 Oct '04

04 Oct '04

Hi everyone, For the "launch" of the "new look WLUG library", could any outstanding books please be returned - I think Gun has one, and a couple of meetings ago someone else took one too. Email me off-list for details on how to return them. Even if you have a book and can't get it back straight away, please email so we can get it in the system correctly. Craig

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RE: [wlug] MacOS X....
by Matthew Browne (DSL HN) 03 Oct '04

03 Oct '04

> From: Martin Bähr [mailto:mbaehr(a)email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at] > > On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 07:36:52PM +1200, Oliver Jones wrote: > > Received an iBook for my mother today. MacOS X is quite > sweet. Lots > > of eye candy. The benefits of an OpenGL powered UI. > > uh? the ui does not use opengl. (if it were, you'd be able to > do things like the java looking glass desktop, like turning > windows sideways) Uh, yes it does use OpenGL. For quite a long time now too. http://www.apple.com.au/macosx/10.2/quartzextreme.html

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